They have not been completely proofread by a local expert yet, but there are transcriptions of the Tithe Applotments for the civil parishes of Caheragh, Drinagh and Dromdaleague available. Refer to this page.
There is work in progress on transcriptions for other parishes, though it may take me a few months to publish them. First I want to coordinate with my proofreader and hope I don't overload him. Second, I will be heading to Salt Lake City for vacation/genealogical research in mid-October to continue research on my own family, to get familiar with other genealogy resources, and to continue developing resources for my own County Cork pages, the tithe transcriptions being part of that effort. Third, I have been taking a much-needed break from driving the 70 mile round-trip to the nearest open Family History Center, and am waiting for the grand reopening of the Los Angeles FHL, which is supposed to happen in late October/early November.
Saturday, October 2, 2010
Thursday, September 23, 2010
The family tree of General Michael Collins (1890-1922)
No, I am not going to publish it here, but I often see questions about it out on genealogy forums so I will post on how to obtain a copy of it, as it is copyrighted material.
You can send a message to copy-orders at nli.ie (replace at with a @) and inquire about the family tree compiled by Michael Collins-Powell. It is document #40,430/17. There is a small fee for copying and sending it back to you by regular mail.
By the way, never take somebody's word for it over the Internet what his, or anybody's family history is. Check on sources yourself.
You can send a message to copy-orders at nli.ie (replace at with a @) and inquire about the family tree compiled by Michael Collins-Powell. It is document #40,430/17. There is a small fee for copying and sending it back to you by regular mail.
By the way, never take somebody's word for it over the Internet what his, or anybody's family history is. Check on sources yourself.
Update: If you are looking for information on General Michael Collins, post your questions on public genealogy forums. You'll find a list of forums on this page. You can also use Google to find such forums. Thank you.
Tuesday, September 21, 2010
Miss Marple's guide to genealogy
One of my favorite Agatha Christie novels was a Miss Marple story called "A Murder is Announced." The second victim of the murderer was killed because she knew something about where the murderer was supposed to be at the moment when the first victim was killed, only the murderer wasn't where she *should* have been. Victim #2 exclaimed to her roommate, "She wasn't THERE!"
Miss Marple asked witnesses, "HOW did she say it? Did she say, 'Well, SHE wasn't there.' or did she say, 'She wasn't THERE!' " In the first place, the stress is on SHE, as if the speaker was enumerating the people who were at the party (the scene of the first murder), saying A was there but B wasn't there but C was there. Whereas in the second case, the stress on THERE suggests the speaker thinks a person was supposed to be in a specific place, and was surprised to find that the person was NOT.
Now what on earth has all this to with family history?
After 17 months of doing genealogical research, I have concluded that good research has as much to do with establishing who your ancestors were NOT as who they were. I have done most of the "easy" research and am now starting to grope in the dark researching ancestral lines my family knows nothing about. One of these lines is Driscoll.
Ellen Driscoll married Michael Collins of Lower Lissane 28-Feb-1854 in the Roman Catholic Parish of Caheragh. So clue #1 is that Ellen was from the Caheragh RC parish area, as the groom typically went to the bride's parish for the wedding. Given the number of Driscolls in the area, that's not much to go on, regrettably.
James Driscoll was a baptismal sponsor of the oldest girl Johanna (1856); Johanna Driscoll sponsored Catherine (1860); Dan Driscoll and Mary Driscoll sponsored John (1862); Margaret Driscoll sponsored Michael (1867); and James sponsored Ellen (1875). So clue #2 is that perhaps Ellen had brothers named James and Daniel, maybe sisters named Margaret, Mary, and Johanna. Knowing that Margaret was often abbreviated to look like Mary, I am also keeping in mind that Margaret and Mary could have been one person.
The oldest girl was named Johanna, and Ellen may have had a sister named Johanna. Could Ellen's mother been named Johanna? That is clue #3. If we stretch the traditional Irish naming pattern a bit further, the second son was named John. Could Ellen's father have been named John?
There is one John Driscoll in the tithe applotment of the civil parish of Caheragh. He was in Coarliss (spelled Corless in the tithe applotment), well within the boundaries of the Roman Catholic Parish. I am filing this piece of information in the back of my brain.
Admittedly these are all thin clues. Although some could exist, I have not seen baptismal records state the relationship of sponsors to the family. And the Irish naming pattern was not law.
There is only ONE solid clue in my records. It is in the 1901 census. Michael Collins and Ellen Driscoll Collins were then 80 and 70 years old respectively, living in Lower Lissane. It so happened that Ellen had a niece Noria Driscoll, age 10, staying with them at the time of the census.
If Noria was a niece, she would have been a daughter of one of Ellen's brothers. Perhaps given the age difference, she was a grand niece. But the important thing is there was another Driscoll body in the household, and it's recorded on paper. (It is a possibility that one of Ellen's sisters or sister's daughters could have married a Driscoll and Noria could have acquired the same surname another way. Even worse, the relationship could have been through a sister of Michael, who could have married a Driscoll. I will keep these possibilities in mind in case my hunt is not successful.)
So the next task became to look for Noria's birth record. That is not as easy as it sounds. My searches for Honora, Nora, or Noria born in 1891 in the FHL PILOT program. turned up Nora b. 1886 in Coronea (father's name Daniel); Norah b. 1888 in Ballingowan in the Whitechurch district of Dungarvan in Co Waterford (father Patrick); Norah b. 1889 Lackarour in Clonakilty (father's name Dan); and Norah b. 1892 in Bantry (father Timothy). None of these sounded right.
I set aside the task of finding Noria for a while, then tried searching PILOT again. Only THEN did I realize that Hanora (with an A) is not indexed to Honora (with an O). So I turned up some additional matches: Hanora b. 1890 in Skeagh (father Patrick); and Hanora b. 1890 in Currabeg (father Michael). These sounded better.
My next task was to match all these birth records to families in the 1901 census and to make sure that all Noras were with their families, in other words, that all Noras were where I EXPECTED THEM TO BE, much like how the second victim in the story I mentioned expected a person to be in a particular place at a particular time.
Present and accounted for in the 1901 census:
Nora, in Coronea, is age 15,
Norah, in Whitechurch, is Norah, age 13,
Norah, in Lackarour, is Hanora, age 11,
Norah, in Bantry, is Nora, age 8,
Hanora, in Skeagh, is Nora, age 11,
But Hanora, Currabeg, wasn't THERE. Just like in the story.
Her sisters are listed, her father Michael was a widower, but Hanora was missing.
By no means does this prove that Noria Driscoll staying in Lower Lissane was the daughter of Michael Driscoll of Currabeg, but this is the ONLY lead I have that makes sense.
Miss Marple asked witnesses, "HOW did she say it? Did she say, 'Well, SHE wasn't there.' or did she say, 'She wasn't THERE!' " In the first place, the stress is on SHE, as if the speaker was enumerating the people who were at the party (the scene of the first murder), saying A was there but B wasn't there but C was there. Whereas in the second case, the stress on THERE suggests the speaker thinks a person was supposed to be in a specific place, and was surprised to find that the person was NOT.
Now what on earth has all this to with family history?
After 17 months of doing genealogical research, I have concluded that good research has as much to do with establishing who your ancestors were NOT as who they were. I have done most of the "easy" research and am now starting to grope in the dark researching ancestral lines my family knows nothing about. One of these lines is Driscoll.
Ellen Driscoll married Michael Collins of Lower Lissane 28-Feb-1854 in the Roman Catholic Parish of Caheragh. So clue #1 is that Ellen was from the Caheragh RC parish area, as the groom typically went to the bride's parish for the wedding. Given the number of Driscolls in the area, that's not much to go on, regrettably.
James Driscoll was a baptismal sponsor of the oldest girl Johanna (1856); Johanna Driscoll sponsored Catherine (1860); Dan Driscoll and Mary Driscoll sponsored John (1862); Margaret Driscoll sponsored Michael (1867); and James sponsored Ellen (1875). So clue #2 is that perhaps Ellen had brothers named James and Daniel, maybe sisters named Margaret, Mary, and Johanna. Knowing that Margaret was often abbreviated to look like Mary, I am also keeping in mind that Margaret and Mary could have been one person.
The oldest girl was named Johanna, and Ellen may have had a sister named Johanna. Could Ellen's mother been named Johanna? That is clue #3. If we stretch the traditional Irish naming pattern a bit further, the second son was named John. Could Ellen's father have been named John?
There is one John Driscoll in the tithe applotment of the civil parish of Caheragh. He was in Coarliss (spelled Corless in the tithe applotment), well within the boundaries of the Roman Catholic Parish. I am filing this piece of information in the back of my brain.
Admittedly these are all thin clues. Although some could exist, I have not seen baptismal records state the relationship of sponsors to the family. And the Irish naming pattern was not law.
There is only ONE solid clue in my records. It is in the 1901 census. Michael Collins and Ellen Driscoll Collins were then 80 and 70 years old respectively, living in Lower Lissane. It so happened that Ellen had a niece Noria Driscoll, age 10, staying with them at the time of the census.
If Noria was a niece, she would have been a daughter of one of Ellen's brothers. Perhaps given the age difference, she was a grand niece. But the important thing is there was another Driscoll body in the household, and it's recorded on paper. (It is a possibility that one of Ellen's sisters or sister's daughters could have married a Driscoll and Noria could have acquired the same surname another way. Even worse, the relationship could have been through a sister of Michael, who could have married a Driscoll. I will keep these possibilities in mind in case my hunt is not successful.)
So the next task became to look for Noria's birth record. That is not as easy as it sounds. My searches for Honora, Nora, or Noria born in 1891 in the FHL PILOT program. turned up Nora b. 1886 in Coronea (father's name Daniel); Norah b. 1888 in Ballingowan in the Whitechurch district of Dungarvan in Co Waterford (father Patrick); Norah b. 1889 Lackarour in Clonakilty (father's name Dan); and Norah b. 1892 in Bantry (father Timothy). None of these sounded right.
I set aside the task of finding Noria for a while, then tried searching PILOT again. Only THEN did I realize that Hanora (with an A) is not indexed to Honora (with an O). So I turned up some additional matches: Hanora b. 1890 in Skeagh (father Patrick); and Hanora b. 1890 in Currabeg (father Michael). These sounded better.
My next task was to match all these birth records to families in the 1901 census and to make sure that all Noras were with their families, in other words, that all Noras were where I EXPECTED THEM TO BE, much like how the second victim in the story I mentioned expected a person to be in a particular place at a particular time.
Present and accounted for in the 1901 census:
Nora, in Coronea, is age 15,
Norah, in Whitechurch, is Norah, age 13,
Norah, in Lackarour, is Hanora, age 11,
Norah, in Bantry, is Nora, age 8,
Hanora, in Skeagh, is Nora, age 11,
But Hanora, Currabeg, wasn't THERE. Just like in the story.
Her sisters are listed, her father Michael was a widower, but Hanora was missing.
By no means does this prove that Noria Driscoll staying in Lower Lissane was the daughter of Michael Driscoll of Currabeg, but this is the ONLY lead I have that makes sense.
Thursday, July 8, 2010
Brick Wall in Adrigole
I have made strides in reconstructing the Larrys from Adrigole. Unfortunately, I have run smack into the proverbial genealogy brick wall due to lack of vital records.
The Larrys "started" with Lawrence Collins, who died in 1867, a widower, with a Jeremiah Collins present at death. From a calculation off his death record, Larr was born around 1783. He was my triple-great-grandfather.
Great-great grandfather Daniel Collins was known as "Danny Larr" - a son of Larr. Danny Larr died in 1894 and from a calculation off his death record was born around 1814. Danny married one Mary Mahony and they were settled in Cullomane East, near Bantry. Danny was there in the Caheragh Tithe Applotment in 1852.
There was a Jeremiah Collins who died in 1903 in Adrigole at the age of 82, a well-known agriculturalist and a long-time member of the Board of Guardians. He was married to Mary Hourihane. Their first son, Lawrence, was baptized 13-Sep-1857. I think Lawrence may have at one time run for the Board of Guardians seat his father once had, but I don't think he won the seat. If I have the relationships worked out correctly, this Lawrence eventually moved to Brade and married Elizabeth Sullivan from Reen in 1904. The marriage record shows two Hourihanes as witnesses. In 1924 Lawrence moved from Brade to Lissard (south of Skibbereen town) and he died in 1929. As for the other children, the first daughter was Catherine, who went on to marry a James Collins from Knockaphreane (down towards Baltimore); they eventually moved to Lick (I think this is Licknavar, just southwest of Skibbereen town). Son Jeremiah married Elizabeth Mary (Lily) Wilson from Corron, Leap 17-Apr-1919. Son Daniel became the Very Reverend Daniel Canon Collins, who spent time in Glasgow; he died in 1934. Son John became the Rev John Collins and served as the "estimable curate" of Clonakilty.
From a calculation off of Jeremiah's death notice, I figured he was born about 1821.
Another known Adrigole Collins family is that of John Collins and Catherine Shiely - or Sheahy, or something like that. Their first son was also Lawrence, baptized 4-Jun-1854. John died in 1886, Catherine died in 1905. Unfortunately, things get very confusing in Catherine's funeral write-up in the Southern Star. It says her brother-in-law Jeremiah of Adrigole was one of the mourners. Jeremiah died 2 years earlier, so a Jeremiah there could have been her son or her nephew by marriage. And it says another brother-in-law mourner was Lawrence in Brade. This would have been her nephew by marriage - Jeremiah's son.
From a calculation off of John's death record, I figured he was born about 1818.
Lawrence son of John had a baptismal sponsor Lawrence Collins. I don't have a further clue as to the baptismal sponsor's identity - though I am aware of a Lawrence Collins
of Ballyriree, Kilmacabea parish who married Mary Hayes in 1866 when he was 26 (Ballyriree Lawrence's father was named John).
Assuming that my family is correct about great-great-grandfather Daniel "Danny Larr" Collins being a son of Larr, I thought there was a good chance John and Jeremiah were also sons of Larr, and asked Skibbereen Heritage to do a search. I thought Danny Larr would have been too old to be in the baptismals, but surely John and Jeremiah would be there.
Nothing.
Skibbereen Heritage couldn't find any Collinses in Adrigole around those dates, though Larr is clearly in the 1825 Castlehaven Tithe Applotment with a "Jerry."
Even if the years had been slightly off I would have expected to at at least found the youngest - Jeremiah, in the baptismals. My conclusion for now is that the Larrys were transplants from elsewhere. And to find out more about the Larrys, I will probably need access to some rather unconventional historical records, such as Board of Guardian meeting notes.
I am starting to wonder about Rosscarbery as their origin, as I've seen Collinses named Jeremiah and Lawrence out of there. Lawrence Collins and Mary Hayes may have moved to Rosscarbery. There was a Rosscarbery Jeremiah Collins married to Mary Donovan, and they had a son Lawrence in 1878.
The Larrys were terrific agriculturalists (Grandmom was an amazing grower and so was Uncle Denis when he was actively doing so), so the Rosscarbery Agricultural Society and annual fair immediately come to mind. Therefore, to successfully dig deeper back into this family, I may eventually have to dig up old Society notes to see if the Larrys were involved.
The Larrys "started" with Lawrence Collins, who died in 1867, a widower, with a Jeremiah Collins present at death. From a calculation off his death record, Larr was born around 1783. He was my triple-great-grandfather.
Great-great grandfather Daniel Collins was known as "Danny Larr" - a son of Larr. Danny Larr died in 1894 and from a calculation off his death record was born around 1814. Danny married one Mary Mahony and they were settled in Cullomane East, near Bantry. Danny was there in the Caheragh Tithe Applotment in 1852.
There was a Jeremiah Collins who died in 1903 in Adrigole at the age of 82, a well-known agriculturalist and a long-time member of the Board of Guardians. He was married to Mary Hourihane. Their first son, Lawrence, was baptized 13-Sep-1857. I think Lawrence may have at one time run for the Board of Guardians seat his father once had, but I don't think he won the seat. If I have the relationships worked out correctly, this Lawrence eventually moved to Brade and married Elizabeth Sullivan from Reen in 1904. The marriage record shows two Hourihanes as witnesses. In 1924 Lawrence moved from Brade to Lissard (south of Skibbereen town) and he died in 1929. As for the other children, the first daughter was Catherine, who went on to marry a James Collins from Knockaphreane (down towards Baltimore); they eventually moved to Lick (I think this is Licknavar, just southwest of Skibbereen town). Son Jeremiah married Elizabeth Mary (Lily) Wilson from Corron, Leap 17-Apr-1919. Son Daniel became the Very Reverend Daniel Canon Collins, who spent time in Glasgow; he died in 1934. Son John became the Rev John Collins and served as the "estimable curate" of Clonakilty.
From a calculation off of Jeremiah's death notice, I figured he was born about 1821.
Another known Adrigole Collins family is that of John Collins and Catherine Shiely - or Sheahy, or something like that. Their first son was also Lawrence, baptized 4-Jun-1854. John died in 1886, Catherine died in 1905. Unfortunately, things get very confusing in Catherine's funeral write-up in the Southern Star. It says her brother-in-law Jeremiah of Adrigole was one of the mourners. Jeremiah died 2 years earlier, so a Jeremiah there could have been her son or her nephew by marriage. And it says another brother-in-law mourner was Lawrence in Brade. This would have been her nephew by marriage - Jeremiah's son.
From a calculation off of John's death record, I figured he was born about 1818.
Lawrence son of John had a baptismal sponsor Lawrence Collins. I don't have a further clue as to the baptismal sponsor's identity - though I am aware of a Lawrence Collins
of Ballyriree, Kilmacabea parish who married Mary Hayes in 1866 when he was 26 (Ballyriree Lawrence's father was named John).
Assuming that my family is correct about great-great-grandfather Daniel "Danny Larr" Collins being a son of Larr, I thought there was a good chance John and Jeremiah were also sons of Larr, and asked Skibbereen Heritage to do a search. I thought Danny Larr would have been too old to be in the baptismals, but surely John and Jeremiah would be there.
Nothing.
Skibbereen Heritage couldn't find any Collinses in Adrigole around those dates, though Larr is clearly in the 1825 Castlehaven Tithe Applotment with a "Jerry."
Even if the years had been slightly off I would have expected to at at least found the youngest - Jeremiah, in the baptismals. My conclusion for now is that the Larrys were transplants from elsewhere. And to find out more about the Larrys, I will probably need access to some rather unconventional historical records, such as Board of Guardian meeting notes.
I am starting to wonder about Rosscarbery as their origin, as I've seen Collinses named Jeremiah and Lawrence out of there. Lawrence Collins and Mary Hayes may have moved to Rosscarbery. There was a Rosscarbery Jeremiah Collins married to Mary Donovan, and they had a son Lawrence in 1878.
The Larrys were terrific agriculturalists (Grandmom was an amazing grower and so was Uncle Denis when he was actively doing so), so the Rosscarbery Agricultural Society and annual fair immediately come to mind. Therefore, to successfully dig deeper back into this family, I may eventually have to dig up old Society notes to see if the Larrys were involved.
Saturday, June 12, 2010
The Hurleys of Coolnagrane
My ancestral Hurleys of Coolnagrane were a rather quiet mysterious and lonely bunch. Unlike the legal scrapes and brawls that my Collinses may have found themselves in, there isn't anything like that about the Hurleys in the Southern Star archives (one was victimized by the theft of a good suit, but that's a long story). The descendants of one Daniel Hurley got most of the press, with the girls winning butter-churning contests! I call the Coolnagrane Hurleys "lonely" because they were not surrounded by lots and lots of Hurleys, unlike my Collins and McCarthy ancestors in Lissane.
The Abbeystrowry Tithe Applotment (1835), which was incredibly faded and practically impossible to read, indicated only a John Hurley in Coolnagrane. There was a Daniel Hurley indicated in what I think is Kilnaclasha (too faded to read the townland name). Those were the only two Hurleys I could scrape out of Abbeystrowry. There are more Hurleys in Castlehaven, Caheragh, and other surrounding civil parishes.
In trying to find a death record for my great-great grandfather John Hurley, I had to get a copy of a death record for just about every man named John Hurley in Skibbereen, from 1880 on, but I finally found it. (1880 was the year John's youngest child Annie Hurley was born.) I was fooled by the 1901 census, as he is not on the household record, but his wife Margaret did say she was married, not widowed. John died 1-Apr-1908, age 70, four years to the day exactly before his daughter Ellen died. Son John was present at death.
From the death record I was able to estimate the birth year (1838) and have Skibbereen Heritage dig up John Hurley's family, since we knew about his father Michael. John was baptized 23-Feb-1839. His mother was Bridget Cahalane. Skibb Heritage said the Hurley residence was not noted on the records (only Skibbereen & Rath RC parish), and they were unable to find a marriage record.
It looks like John had three younger brothers:
Patrick, bap. 2-Mar-1841
Daniel, 31-May-1843
Michael, 15-Jan-1849
Those winning the butter-churning contests were possibly descended from Daniel. I am not sure, because I find two Daniel Hurleys in the 1901 census, one age 40 and one age 69. I think the older one (the dairy man) is John Hurley's brother. Since he was a dairy man, his descendants were probably the prize-winning butter-churners. I don't know whose son the younger Daniel is.
I hold a slight question mark over Patrick only because the record says Coughlan, not Cahalane. These are two distinct names with different origins. But from having stared at many hundreds of illegibly written records I wouldn't be surprised if there were a transcription error picked up on the way. And, Bridget apparently went by Biddy.
The Coolnagrane John Hurley in the 1835 Tithe Applotment is an unknown, speculatively the next Hurley up the patrilineal line from Michael (the Michael married to Bridget Cahalane). Perhaps Daniel of Kilnaclasha? was John's brother. I can only theorize.
Griffiths only shows Michael Hurley in Coolnagrane.
My Hurley chart is updated: Hurleys of Coolnagrane
My quick scan of the BMD index available from the LDS library only turns up one Bridget Hurley death record of interest. She sounds too old to be Bridget Cahalane - she would have been about 46 when John was born!. But the estimated age at death could be wrong so I will give that one record a shot just to eliminate it as a possibility.
Of course the question remaining, which may not be possible to answer is, where did this little cluster of Coolnagrane Hurleys come from?
The Abbeystrowry Tithe Applotment (1835), which was incredibly faded and practically impossible to read, indicated only a John Hurley in Coolnagrane. There was a Daniel Hurley indicated in what I think is Kilnaclasha (too faded to read the townland name). Those were the only two Hurleys I could scrape out of Abbeystrowry. There are more Hurleys in Castlehaven, Caheragh, and other surrounding civil parishes.
In trying to find a death record for my great-great grandfather John Hurley, I had to get a copy of a death record for just about every man named John Hurley in Skibbereen, from 1880 on, but I finally found it. (1880 was the year John's youngest child Annie Hurley was born.) I was fooled by the 1901 census, as he is not on the household record, but his wife Margaret did say she was married, not widowed. John died 1-Apr-1908, age 70, four years to the day exactly before his daughter Ellen died. Son John was present at death.
From the death record I was able to estimate the birth year (1838) and have Skibbereen Heritage dig up John Hurley's family, since we knew about his father Michael. John was baptized 23-Feb-1839. His mother was Bridget Cahalane. Skibb Heritage said the Hurley residence was not noted on the records (only Skibbereen & Rath RC parish), and they were unable to find a marriage record.
It looks like John had three younger brothers:
Patrick, bap. 2-Mar-1841
Daniel, 31-May-1843
Michael, 15-Jan-1849
Those winning the butter-churning contests were possibly descended from Daniel. I am not sure, because I find two Daniel Hurleys in the 1901 census, one age 40 and one age 69. I think the older one (the dairy man) is John Hurley's brother. Since he was a dairy man, his descendants were probably the prize-winning butter-churners. I don't know whose son the younger Daniel is.
I hold a slight question mark over Patrick only because the record says Coughlan, not Cahalane. These are two distinct names with different origins. But from having stared at many hundreds of illegibly written records I wouldn't be surprised if there were a transcription error picked up on the way. And, Bridget apparently went by Biddy.
The Coolnagrane John Hurley in the 1835 Tithe Applotment is an unknown, speculatively the next Hurley up the patrilineal line from Michael (the Michael married to Bridget Cahalane). Perhaps Daniel of Kilnaclasha? was John's brother. I can only theorize.
Griffiths only shows Michael Hurley in Coolnagrane.
My Hurley chart is updated: Hurleys of Coolnagrane
My quick scan of the BMD index available from the LDS library only turns up one Bridget Hurley death record of interest. She sounds too old to be Bridget Cahalane - she would have been about 46 when John was born!. But the estimated age at death could be wrong so I will give that one record a shot just to eliminate it as a possibility.
Of course the question remaining, which may not be possible to answer is, where did this little cluster of Coolnagrane Hurleys come from?
Sunday, June 6, 2010
Grandmom's uncle Daniel Collins, 21-Sep-1865, of Cullomane
Denny Dan Larr's youngest brother was Daniel Collins, whose birth was registered around 21-Sep-1865 in Cullomane. Thanks to Aunt Peg I finally know what happened to him.
The whole topic came up when we were discussing my 2009 trip to Ireland. I had sent some photos of Kenmare to my cousin, and Aunt Peg said on the phone one day, "Did you know we have cousins down in Kenmare?" When my ears perked up she laughed.
When she was about 17, Peg went down to Kenmare and met a cousin named Laurence, who was about 10 years older. He had a brother named Denis. Laurence had a chemist's shop (a pharmacy) and Denis was a schoolteacher. Aunt Peg also said something about a policeman.
It turns out there aren't that many Collinses in Kenmare, and my initial online search turned up a Daniel and a Denis born in the 1870's, plus a Laurence born in 1913.
From Laurence's birth record I learned that Daniel Collins was his father and Elizabeth Lavery was his mother. Daniel was listed as an ex-R.I.C. Constable. I did some further searching at the LDS Family Search but have not yet turned up another child named Denis. The family residence was listed as Direen. There is a Direen on the Ring of Kerry.
I searched the 1911 census online - nothing.
At the church record website Irish Genealogy, I did turn up evidence of an older child named Mary Ellen, born 1906.
I tried again to search the 1911 census for Daniel, Elizabeth, or Mary Ellen Collins. Nothing.
I was starting to think that the family lived in some special kind of construction that was tallied on certain forms that did not get digitized for the census online. Or that they lived in England. I searched some UK census databases, but could not find anything that really matched.
I tried to match Elizabeth Laverys to Daniel Collinses in the PILOT at Family Search, in the hopes of coming up with a marriage record. No luck.
The name Lavery is very rare in Southern Ireland, and is far more frequently found in the northern counties or even Dublin. I was starting to think that Daniel married Elizabeth up there, and that their marriage record was buried in the church records up north.
In the meantime, I finally obtained the death record of Daniel and Denny Dan Larr's father, Danny Larr. Danny Larr died 14-Jul-1894 in Cullomane.
Daniel, the son, was the informant. For informant residence, there is a somewhat illegible scrawl followed by "Co Kerry."
A post to Co Kerry Roots Chat soon attracted someone who was able to identify the place as Templenoe, a civil parish in Kerry. He provided a link about Templenoe at Genuki. This very informative page says that Templenoe was segmented between the district electoral divisions of Dromore, Greenane, Kenmare, Reen, and Loughbrin.
I tried the 1911 census again. In Greenane, there is a placename called Derreenfinlehid. Well, that starts with Derreen, which sounds like Direen. Geographically, it is close to Sneem, which is rather far away from the other Direen I had spotted earlier.
In Derreenfinlehid, there is a Domhnall Ó Coileáin. The household census return is in Gaelic. His wife is Eilís ní Choileáin, and his daughter is Máire Eibhlín. There is another son called Domhnall Sheosaiph.
On the form, which was filled out in Gaelic, somebody had handwritten "pensioner" for Domhnall's occupation and "schoolmaster" for Eilís's occupation.
Never would I have imagined that their census return was in Gaelic!!!
The 1911 census says that Daniel and Elizabeth were married nine years. That would put the marriage date around 1902. Still no luck finding the marriage record.
I did find Lizzie Lavery in the same place in the 1901 census. She and her sister were teachers. Elizabeth was born in Sneem in 1870 and the Lavery parents were also teachers.
Why can't I find the marriage record of Daniel and Elizabeth at Family Search? And when and where was their son Denis born? Or is Daniel Joseph really Denis?
And who were Daniel and Denis in the 1870's, born to John Collins and Mary Houlihan? Are they somehow related?
The whole topic came up when we were discussing my 2009 trip to Ireland. I had sent some photos of Kenmare to my cousin, and Aunt Peg said on the phone one day, "Did you know we have cousins down in Kenmare?" When my ears perked up she laughed.
When she was about 17, Peg went down to Kenmare and met a cousin named Laurence, who was about 10 years older. He had a brother named Denis. Laurence had a chemist's shop (a pharmacy) and Denis was a schoolteacher. Aunt Peg also said something about a policeman.
It turns out there aren't that many Collinses in Kenmare, and my initial online search turned up a Daniel and a Denis born in the 1870's, plus a Laurence born in 1913.
From Laurence's birth record I learned that Daniel Collins was his father and Elizabeth Lavery was his mother. Daniel was listed as an ex-R.I.C. Constable. I did some further searching at the LDS Family Search but have not yet turned up another child named Denis. The family residence was listed as Direen. There is a Direen on the Ring of Kerry.
I searched the 1911 census online - nothing.
At the church record website Irish Genealogy, I did turn up evidence of an older child named Mary Ellen, born 1906.
I tried again to search the 1911 census for Daniel, Elizabeth, or Mary Ellen Collins. Nothing.
I was starting to think that the family lived in some special kind of construction that was tallied on certain forms that did not get digitized for the census online. Or that they lived in England. I searched some UK census databases, but could not find anything that really matched.
I tried to match Elizabeth Laverys to Daniel Collinses in the PILOT at Family Search, in the hopes of coming up with a marriage record. No luck.
The name Lavery is very rare in Southern Ireland, and is far more frequently found in the northern counties or even Dublin. I was starting to think that Daniel married Elizabeth up there, and that their marriage record was buried in the church records up north.
In the meantime, I finally obtained the death record of Daniel and Denny Dan Larr's father, Danny Larr. Danny Larr died 14-Jul-1894 in Cullomane.
Daniel, the son, was the informant. For informant residence, there is a somewhat illegible scrawl followed by "Co Kerry."
A post to Co Kerry Roots Chat soon attracted someone who was able to identify the place as Templenoe, a civil parish in Kerry. He provided a link about Templenoe at Genuki. This very informative page says that Templenoe was segmented between the district electoral divisions of Dromore, Greenane, Kenmare, Reen, and Loughbrin.
I tried the 1911 census again. In Greenane, there is a placename called Derreenfinlehid. Well, that starts with Derreen, which sounds like Direen. Geographically, it is close to Sneem, which is rather far away from the other Direen I had spotted earlier.
In Derreenfinlehid, there is a Domhnall Ó Coileáin. The household census return is in Gaelic. His wife is Eilís ní Choileáin, and his daughter is Máire Eibhlín. There is another son called Domhnall Sheosaiph.
On the form, which was filled out in Gaelic, somebody had handwritten "pensioner" for Domhnall's occupation and "schoolmaster" for Eilís's occupation.
Never would I have imagined that their census return was in Gaelic!!!
The 1911 census says that Daniel and Elizabeth were married nine years. That would put the marriage date around 1902. Still no luck finding the marriage record.
I did find Lizzie Lavery in the same place in the 1901 census. She and her sister were teachers. Elizabeth was born in Sneem in 1870 and the Lavery parents were also teachers.
Why can't I find the marriage record of Daniel and Elizabeth at Family Search? And when and where was their son Denis born? Or is Daniel Joseph really Denis?
And who were Daniel and Denis in the 1870's, born to John Collins and Mary Houlihan? Are they somehow related?
Wednesday, May 19, 2010
Progress
Wow, it's been ages since I've written!
I've been spending my time looking at birth films, year by year, casting the net looking for potential ancestors. I've also been looking at 1901 census films and at Tithe Applotment films.
I have obtained a few books on Irish names and I've learned that the name Owen, to my surprise, is interchangeable with Eugene. That explains why, in the Hourihane records Margaret at Skibbereen Heritage sent me, Owen is listed as Eugene. I also learned that Marty, Murty, and Morty have all been used for Mortimer.
MCCARTHY
I found an article in the Ireland news archives about Daniel McCarthy, the schoolteacher whom Aunt Peg remembers. The article did not give the names of the member of his nuclear family, but it mentioned his first marriage. His first wife's name was Margaret Fitzgerald, and they married in 1888.
I figured from that piece of information I would get Daniel's father's name and the townland he lived in before he got married. So I sent away to the GRO for a copy of that record.
The 1911 census shows his elderly mother living with the family - his mother's name was Kate.
The marriage record said that he was 25 at the time of the marriage and that his father's name was Cornelius. His residence was Curraghalicky in Drinagh.
In my research notes from film-scanning I found a Catherine McCarthy born in 1865 in Curraghalicky to a Cornelius McCarthy and a Catherine Burke. What luck that I found a sibling born late enough to get recorded in the general registration! Now I had the surname of the mother.
In addition, the marriage record showed a Michael McCarthy as a witness. I figured that might be a possible brother.
Armed with all that information, I contacted Skibbereen Heritage. Margaret immediately found the family, in neigboring Garryglass. She was unable to find a marriage record, so where Catherine Burke was from is a mystery, as it assumed that Cornelius went to Catherine Burke's Roman Catholic parish to get married.
I may have to resort to more letter-writing to Daniel's descendants, to see if anybody knows anything about his parents, particularly his father's family. We think that Daniel's father was possibly a brother of Mary McCarthy, Granddad's grandmother. I am in the process right now of looking for the death records of Mary and Cornelius. From those records I will get their estimated age and therefore the approximate years they were born. But it would be nice to know a little more before venturing into another search.
HOURIHANE
I was contacted by somebody who is probably a distant Hourihane cousin, named Pat. Pat's great-grandfather was named Mortimer Howard, and there is reason to believe that Irish emigrants often changed the name from Hourihane to Howard upon arrival here. This Mortimer Howard emigrated during the famine, in the late 1840's. Pat also mentioned that there was a brother named Eugene. Because of the similar family names, Pat thinks that his great-grandfather is somehow connected to the Hourihanes of Clohane, and I think it is true.
Unfortunately, there are huge gaps in the records and therefore in our knowledge. We don't know the details about the families of the Hourihanes listed in Clohane in the Caheragh Tithe Applotment, which was taken in 1827. We only see the names of the men who were farming. And unfortunately, Griffiths Valuation just adds to the confusion. People started getting creative with the spelling so Hourihane became Hourahan in the Clohane area. As I keep searching birth, death, and marriage films, perhaps something will illuminate this family.
THE LARRYS
I had to split my Larrys folder into two folders - one for Collins out of Colomane East, and one for Collins out of Adrigool, in Castlehaven.
Colomane East
Aunt Peg mentioned on the phone one day that "we have cousins down in Kenmare." They are Collinses out of Colomane East. There aren't many people named Collins in County Kerry when compared to Cork, and in Kenmare the name is rare. Somebody named Laurence Collins is about as rare as Haley's Comet, so I was easily able to find the birth record of somebody named Laurence, born in 1913. Aunt Peg said something about a policeman. Laurence's father, Daniel, was an ex- R.I.C. (Royal Irish Constabulary) constable. The mother's name was Elizabeth Lavery, which is not nearly as common a name in the Irish Republic as it is in Northern Ireland.
I searched and searched but was unable to turn up anything in the 1911 census for Daniel and Elizabeth. I don't know if he had already left the R.I.C. and if not, what sort of living arrangements that constables had. I did find a baptismal record of Laurence's sister Mary Ellen in 1906, on a website called Irish Genealogy, but I was unable to locate a marriage record for Elizabeth and Daniel. It is strange how Daniel and Elizabeth stayed off the radar.
Who is this Daniel? Is he Great-granddad Denis's youngest brother, born in 1865? Or is he the son of another brother? How are Laurence and Daniel related to Grandmom?
Adrigool
I am trying to figure out the Collins families from the 1900's and work backwards from there. I continue to follow the trails of Larrys. The death record of Laurence Collins, who died in 1867, shows a Jeremiah Collins present at death. This is probably a son. A Jeremiah Collins of Adrigool died in 1903, age 82. Unfortunately, that does not neatly match the Jerry Collins I found farming with Laurence in Adrigool in the Castlehaven Tithe Applotment, taken about 1828. Either the newspaper obituary underestimated the age, or there is another Jeremiah Collins wedged in there.
The Tithe Applotment also shows a William Collins and a Daniel Collins. Grandmom's Granddad Daniel is "Danny Larr", son of Larry Collins. Again, the ages don't match. Could there have been another generation wedged in between Daniel and Laurence, maybe another Daniel, who would have been Danny Larr? I think it is odd that Great-Granddad Denis did not have a brother named Laurence, at least, not one that I am aware of! I have been going through scads of Daniel Collins records and so far I have been unable to turn up anything about any Daniel Collins in our family! Who was Daniel in this Tithe Applotment and when did the Daniel who was Grandmom's granddad go to Colomane East?
There was a John Collins married to a Catherine Shiely. They had three children I know about, including John J, born in 1871. I think John J. Collins shows up later in the newspapers, and he purchased land in Smorane. Was he somehow related?!?
In 1866, 26 year old Laurence Collins of Ballyriree (just northeast of Adrigool) married 24 year old Mary Hayes. His father was John Collins. Was this John Collins from Adrigool? Was Laurence named after his paternal grandfather? From the IGI, it looks like Laurence and Mary moved to the Rosscarbery area and had several children. I have not found one named after the dad.
The Jeremiah Collins I am puzzling over married Mary Hourihane (a different bunch of Hourihanes), and had several children. I *think* they could have had a son Laurence born in 1857 but I am not sure. A Laurence, son of Jeremiah, married Elizabeth Sullivan in 1904. This Laurence was living in Brahed (Brade), Myross at the time of the marriage. But this does not match what I find in news archives. There was a Lawrence Collins in Brade but his wife's name was Mary, they moved to Lissard in 1924, and he died in 1929.
As you can see, there are several jigsaw puzzles to solve.
I've been spending my time looking at birth films, year by year, casting the net looking for potential ancestors. I've also been looking at 1901 census films and at Tithe Applotment films.
I have obtained a few books on Irish names and I've learned that the name Owen, to my surprise, is interchangeable with Eugene. That explains why, in the Hourihane records Margaret at Skibbereen Heritage sent me, Owen is listed as Eugene. I also learned that Marty, Murty, and Morty have all been used for Mortimer.
MCCARTHY
I found an article in the Ireland news archives about Daniel McCarthy, the schoolteacher whom Aunt Peg remembers. The article did not give the names of the member of his nuclear family, but it mentioned his first marriage. His first wife's name was Margaret Fitzgerald, and they married in 1888.
I figured from that piece of information I would get Daniel's father's name and the townland he lived in before he got married. So I sent away to the GRO for a copy of that record.
The 1911 census shows his elderly mother living with the family - his mother's name was Kate.
The marriage record said that he was 25 at the time of the marriage and that his father's name was Cornelius. His residence was Curraghalicky in Drinagh.
In my research notes from film-scanning I found a Catherine McCarthy born in 1865 in Curraghalicky to a Cornelius McCarthy and a Catherine Burke. What luck that I found a sibling born late enough to get recorded in the general registration! Now I had the surname of the mother.
In addition, the marriage record showed a Michael McCarthy as a witness. I figured that might be a possible brother.
Armed with all that information, I contacted Skibbereen Heritage. Margaret immediately found the family, in neigboring Garryglass. She was unable to find a marriage record, so where Catherine Burke was from is a mystery, as it assumed that Cornelius went to Catherine Burke's Roman Catholic parish to get married.
I may have to resort to more letter-writing to Daniel's descendants, to see if anybody knows anything about his parents, particularly his father's family. We think that Daniel's father was possibly a brother of Mary McCarthy, Granddad's grandmother. I am in the process right now of looking for the death records of Mary and Cornelius. From those records I will get their estimated age and therefore the approximate years they were born. But it would be nice to know a little more before venturing into another search.
HOURIHANE
I was contacted by somebody who is probably a distant Hourihane cousin, named Pat. Pat's great-grandfather was named Mortimer Howard, and there is reason to believe that Irish emigrants often changed the name from Hourihane to Howard upon arrival here. This Mortimer Howard emigrated during the famine, in the late 1840's. Pat also mentioned that there was a brother named Eugene. Because of the similar family names, Pat thinks that his great-grandfather is somehow connected to the Hourihanes of Clohane, and I think it is true.
Unfortunately, there are huge gaps in the records and therefore in our knowledge. We don't know the details about the families of the Hourihanes listed in Clohane in the Caheragh Tithe Applotment, which was taken in 1827. We only see the names of the men who were farming. And unfortunately, Griffiths Valuation just adds to the confusion. People started getting creative with the spelling so Hourihane became Hourahan in the Clohane area. As I keep searching birth, death, and marriage films, perhaps something will illuminate this family.
THE LARRYS
I had to split my Larrys folder into two folders - one for Collins out of Colomane East, and one for Collins out of Adrigool, in Castlehaven.
Colomane East
Aunt Peg mentioned on the phone one day that "we have cousins down in Kenmare." They are Collinses out of Colomane East. There aren't many people named Collins in County Kerry when compared to Cork, and in Kenmare the name is rare. Somebody named Laurence Collins is about as rare as Haley's Comet, so I was easily able to find the birth record of somebody named Laurence, born in 1913. Aunt Peg said something about a policeman. Laurence's father, Daniel, was an ex- R.I.C. (Royal Irish Constabulary) constable. The mother's name was Elizabeth Lavery, which is not nearly as common a name in the Irish Republic as it is in Northern Ireland.
I searched and searched but was unable to turn up anything in the 1911 census for Daniel and Elizabeth. I don't know if he had already left the R.I.C. and if not, what sort of living arrangements that constables had. I did find a baptismal record of Laurence's sister Mary Ellen in 1906, on a website called Irish Genealogy, but I was unable to locate a marriage record for Elizabeth and Daniel. It is strange how Daniel and Elizabeth stayed off the radar.
Who is this Daniel? Is he Great-granddad Denis's youngest brother, born in 1865? Or is he the son of another brother? How are Laurence and Daniel related to Grandmom?
Adrigool
I am trying to figure out the Collins families from the 1900's and work backwards from there. I continue to follow the trails of Larrys. The death record of Laurence Collins, who died in 1867, shows a Jeremiah Collins present at death. This is probably a son. A Jeremiah Collins of Adrigool died in 1903, age 82. Unfortunately, that does not neatly match the Jerry Collins I found farming with Laurence in Adrigool in the Castlehaven Tithe Applotment, taken about 1828. Either the newspaper obituary underestimated the age, or there is another Jeremiah Collins wedged in there.
The Tithe Applotment also shows a William Collins and a Daniel Collins. Grandmom's Granddad Daniel is "Danny Larr", son of Larry Collins. Again, the ages don't match. Could there have been another generation wedged in between Daniel and Laurence, maybe another Daniel, who would have been Danny Larr? I think it is odd that Great-Granddad Denis did not have a brother named Laurence, at least, not one that I am aware of! I have been going through scads of Daniel Collins records and so far I have been unable to turn up anything about any Daniel Collins in our family! Who was Daniel in this Tithe Applotment and when did the Daniel who was Grandmom's granddad go to Colomane East?
There was a John Collins married to a Catherine Shiely. They had three children I know about, including John J, born in 1871. I think John J. Collins shows up later in the newspapers, and he purchased land in Smorane. Was he somehow related?!?
In 1866, 26 year old Laurence Collins of Ballyriree (just northeast of Adrigool) married 24 year old Mary Hayes. His father was John Collins. Was this John Collins from Adrigool? Was Laurence named after his paternal grandfather? From the IGI, it looks like Laurence and Mary moved to the Rosscarbery area and had several children. I have not found one named after the dad.
The Jeremiah Collins I am puzzling over married Mary Hourihane (a different bunch of Hourihanes), and had several children. I *think* they could have had a son Laurence born in 1857 but I am not sure. A Laurence, son of Jeremiah, married Elizabeth Sullivan in 1904. This Laurence was living in Brahed (Brade), Myross at the time of the marriage. But this does not match what I find in news archives. There was a Lawrence Collins in Brade but his wife's name was Mary, they moved to Lissard in 1924, and he died in 1929.
As you can see, there are several jigsaw puzzles to solve.
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