Collins of Bunalun, Skibbereen Genealogy

Kilmoe Tithe Applotment transcription is now online

2012-01-11T05:49:00.000-08:00

Kilmoe parish encompasses Mizen Head peninsula, and includes Crookhaven and Goleen. It appears that the parish was enumerated in 1828.

I was able to get the transcription of Kilmoe completed sooner than I expected. However, the next TA book transcriptions will not be appearing until mid to late summer, after we settle in from our move to Salt Lake City this spring.

Transcriptions for the Skibbereen area.

Submit a correction.

Hurleys of Coolnagarrane, version 2.0

2012-01-05T11:07:00.000-08:00

I have updated my information on the Coolnagarrane Hurleys. I am waiting for some info from the UK to correct an error in the Tomalin branch; other than that this is the best I can do.

I cannot conclusively prove some of these relationships, and will have to rely on people "in the know" to fill me in.

I think my ggg-grandfather Michael Hurley had a brother Daniel, who married Honora McCarthy in 1850. As far as I can tell, Norry was a McCarthy Sowny from Drominidy. (Their son Daniel married a Julia McCarthy in 1894; she was also a McCarthy-Sowny, and also from Drominidy.)

I think Michael and Daniel had a younger sister Ellen, whose baptism record made it online (1815). (The Hurley records are all in Skibbereen Creagh & Sullon.) Her parents are recorded as John Hurley and Jane McCarthy, no residence given.

I think this Ellen married a John Sweeny in 1846. Michael Hurley and Daniel Hurley were witnesses. I think the Sweeny family lived at various times in Tooreennasillane, Kilnaclasha, and Lakelands.

The parents - John Hurley and Jane McCarthy, show up on the baptism record for a Randal Hurley in Coolnagarrane, 1814, parents James Hurley and Mary Leonard (Linnane). Did this John have a brother James?

Trawling through the online records, I found all these children for James Hurley and Mary Leonard:
Randal in Coolnagarrane 1814
Denis in Coolnagarrane 1816
James on Chapel Lane 1819
Michael on Chapel Lane 1825

There is a John Hurley in Coolnagarrane in the Abbeystrowry Tithe Applotment (1835); there are a Patrick, John, and James Hurley in the Creagh TA (1832) in "Skibbereen town and gardens".

I think I once read that a Dan in the Daniel Hurley branch eventually moved up to Bandon. That may well have been the end of this tribe of Hurleys in Coolnagarrane. I have been in touch with Hurleys living there now, but they are not related.

I am dying to know where the old Coolnagarrane Hurleys originally came from. I realize Ballinacarriga is the Hurley seat in southwest Cork, but how did the southwest Cork Hurleys spread out from there...? The other Hurleys on my Grandmom's side, through the Mahonys, are almost a total blank, other than the names of some Hurley baptism sponsors for the Mahony children.

Some unsung Cork heroes of Irish Independence

2012-01-04T17:15:00.000-08:00

Most Irish family researchers and historians are aware of General Michael Collins and his predecessor, Jeremiah O'Donovan Rossa. Considerable chatter has been devoted to these two towering figures of history on forums pertaining to Ireland.

Today I thought I'd post about two individuals geographically closer to my mother's ancestral origins, and therefore somewhat dearer to me as I practically consider them neighbors.

Sean Hurley

Since I have two Hurley lines and know absolutely nothing about one and only a little about the other, Sean Hurley sparked my curiosity. According to the Southern Star, Sean Hurley, born July 3, 1887, in Maulagow, Leap, was the only Corkman who died in or was executed for his participation in the 1916 Easter Rising. In literature about Michael Collins you'll see Sean's name. Sean's sister Kate was Michael's sister-in-law; she was the first wife of Michael's oldest brother Johnny Collins. However, Sean and Michael were friends before that.

Some literature says that Sean Hurley was Michael's cousin. Other than this well-documented relationship by marriage I have not seen anything specifying this blood relationship.

Sean's father was John Daniel Hurley, whom the Southern Star says was "of Ballinacarriga stock." Well, that doesn't really tell me much because Hurleys in southwest Cork pretty much all originated from Ballinacarriga, the Hurley seat. From my still meager understanding of Hurley history, apparently there was territory divided up between Hurleys and McCarthys in the Drinagh area way back when.

Working backwards, I found the family in the censuses. Maulagow is in the Drinagh District Electoral Division. In the 1911 census I found 69 year old John, 63 year old Kate, and 32 year old son Patrick. John and Kate were married 40 years.

The 1901 census lists John at 50, Kate at 45, Pat 21, John (that would be Sean) 14, Kattie 18, and Mollie 16.

I then looked for the marriage. John Daniel Hurley married Catherine Walsh of Maulatrahane 13-Feb-1872, in the R.C. Parish of Kilmacabea. However, as far as I can tell, the children were baptized in Drimoleague & Drinagh R.C. Parish:

Daniel 1872, William 1874, Ellen 1875, Patrick 1878, and Catherine 1881 were the only siblings of Sean that I could find.

Unfortunately, the ages listed in the census for Sean Hurley's parents slide around. Hurley is all over the place, but Walsh is not quite as common, so I thought I'd try looking for Kate Walsh's family records. Her parents may have been William Walsh and Kate Donovan of Maulatrahane. The children I found were John 1835, Patrick 1837, William 1838, Mary 1839, Thomas 1841, Garrett 1844 (I have seen this name in conjunction with Walsh frequently), James 1846, Catherine 1848, and Ellen 1851.

(Note: I have NOT examined all these records.)
Some day when there is ample time I may take a crack at looking for John Hurley.

Gearóid O'Sullivan

The other unsung Cork hero whom I yearn to know more was born as Jeremiah, in Coolnagarrane on January 28, 1891 (which I haven't verified), to Michael O'Sullivan and Margaret McCarthy. Gearóid O'Sullivan hoisted the tri-color flag during the Easter Rising and was the Quarter-Master General of the Free State.

I have the marriage record of the parents. Michael and Margaret were married January 6, 1883 in Skibbereen. Michael O'Sullivan was from Lough Hyne; his father Daniel was deceased. Margaret was from Coolnagarrane, and her father Owen McCarthy was also deceased.

According to online sources Margaret was born in Coolnagarrane. I don't know if that is factually correct; the marriage record stating a residence is not proof that one was born in the same place. Michael went to Coolnagarrane to the McCarthy holding. My Hurley ancestors were from Coolnagarrane, and they may have had McCarthy ancestors, which is why this O'Sullivan family is dear to my heart.

I took a look at the census records. The O'Sullivans were indeed ardent nationalists; their 1911 census return is filled out in Irish. Notice that Gearóid is not listed; he was likely away occupied with his studies. The record says Margaret was 54, which would place her birth year at about 1857.

The 1901 census lists Margaret as 40. That would put her year of birth around 1861.

I have been unable to verify I have identified the correct Margaret McCarthy. After trawling through the online church records, looking for Margarets with fathers named Owen (or Eugene, an alternate name), I came up with at least two families, maybe more.

The family of a Eugene McCarthy and Mary Walsh as far as I can tell lived in Skibbereen. Some of the records for the children list Mill Road, which doesn't particularly bother me, as that is of close proximity to Coolnagarrane. The marriage, if I managed to grab the correct one, was in Skibbereen & Rath, January 28, 1845, and included a Richard Walsh as witness. The children were Catherine 1845, Honora 1847 (Norry McCarthy as sponsor), Helena 1849 (Pat Hurley and Mary Walsh as sponsors), Eugene 1851 (Thomas Walsh sponsor), Timothy 1855 (Mary Hurley sponsor), Mary of Mill Road 1857(Richard Walsh sponsor), Bridget Ann of Mill Street 1860 (Mary Walsh sponsor), Margaret 1862 (Mary Hurley sponsor), and James (Honora Walsh sponsor).

The other Margaret I found was baptized September 4, 1857, the daughter of Eugene McCarthy and Mary Carthy. The residence listed is Russagh, well on the south side of Skibbereen. Jerry Carthy was a sponsor. There are records for an Owen (Mc)Carthy and a Mary (Mc)Carthy going back to 1838, and I am uncertain if they are for the same or for different families. Joanna 1838, Eugene 1842, Timothy 1844, John 1848, Owen 1850, John of North Street 1853, Margaret of Russagh (south of Skibbereen) 1857.

(Note: I have NOT examined all these records.)

So I am a bit stuck there. I have no further information other than a funeral notice for Margaret McCarthy O'Sullivan from the Southern Star, 20-May-1944.

I am fairly certain one of the descendants of Margaret McCarthy and Michael O'Sullivan, another Michael O'Sullivan, was my Grandmother's doctor.

A lady by the name of Joni Scanlon is a descendant, and has been writing a much-needed book on Gearóid O'Sullivan. I am impatiently waiting for it.

Tithe book transcription for Skull is now online

2011-12-27T00:23:00.000-08:00

Skull transcription is finally online. This has been very difficult to do and there will no doubt be many errors. Note that Skibbereen Heritage has a tithe book database for the same area online, and there are some differences with what is in their database.

Transcriptions for the area are available here:
Skibbereen area transcriptions

To submit a correction, please use this link:
Submit a correction

The Youngs of North Street, Skibbereen

2011-11-29T22:12:00.000-08:00

Tessie Young was a pharmacist on North Street. My mother and her siblings were told by Granddad that Tessie was Granddad's "cousin." Of course, we don't know exactly how.

It was this little genealogy tidbit I heard from my aunt that confirmed for me that Skibbereen Heritage pinpointed Granddad's McCarthy-Sowney line: that of Charles McCarthy and Margaret Young of Lissane. Their son, Cornelius (1824-1900) was Granddad's grandfather.

Now I need to fill in the gap in between Margaret Young McCarthy, living in the early 1800's, and Tessie Young (1889-1964).

In the 1901 census, Tessie's mother, Ellen, was widowed. The oldest child listed, Mary, was 23. Tessie was 11.

Tessie was born in 1889. Her parents were William Young, a North Street shopkeeper, and Ellen Hurley. (Yes, Ellen was one of the Coolnagarrane Hurleys. That's another story.)

William died in 1897 at age 58. That would put his birth year around 1839.

Working backwards, William Young and Ellen Hurley married in 1875. His father is listed as John Young and both father and son are listed as shoemakers.

In Griffith's Valuation, there is a John Young listed in Coronea, Skibbereen, but no further information about occupation is given.

There is a John Young, North Street, Boot and Shoemaker, listed in Slater's 1846 commercial directory.

There is a William Young listed in the Abbeystrowry Tithe Applotment in Coronea in 1835. Update: In the Creagh Tithe Applotment from 1831, there is a John Young on North Street.

Pigot's Commercial Directory of 1824 lists a Thomas Young, saddler, in Bridgetown. There are no Youngs on North Street.

Elsewhere in the Tithe Applotment books are Youngs in Killaveenoge, Rearahinagh, Derreeny, Derryclough, and Driminidy.

Looking at the online church records, I found one William Young in Skibbereen in 1837, whose father was John Young and whose mother was Mary Collins. Other children of this couple that pop up are Thomas 1832, Joanna 1834, and James 1843. No residence is given on any of these baptism records. If John Young named Thomas after his father, perhaps Thomas the saddler is the next one up the ancestry ladder.

Unfortunately, that's the end of the rope. To find John Young who had a son Thomas in 1832, I would have to assume that John was born before about 1812, and the records just don't go back that far.

Now I have the same problem that every researcher out there has. How do I link these leather workers, shopkeepers, and pharmacists on North Street to Margaret Young McCarthy out in rural Lissane?

Found: missing great-great grandmother's baptism record

2011-11-29T09:55:00.000-08:00

Good luck if you are trying to find an ancestor whose name is like Mary McCarthy. Mary ended up being a tough research problem at BOTH ends of her life. I had to write to Ireland GRO several times for her death record. If you have not read my prior post about the mistakes I made looking for that death record, you can read all about that experience here.

When I was researching McCarthys in Garryglass, Drinagh, Skibbereen Heritage couldn't originally find her record. I simply had it on faith in what my aunts were telling me that Mary McCarthy was the aunt of a man named Daniel McCarthy, who was a rather well-known schoolmaster in Drinagh.

Mary McCarthy is not in the index of the online church records. So this morning I started visually inspecting the Drimoleague & Drinagh images starting around 1835. I noticed that a number of these images have the "feature" of dark edges and a smudgey black bottom that makes some records unreadable. I immediately suspected that Mary McCarthy's baptism record was buried under such a smudge spot.

Finally, I found something in 1838. I think this is her. Only the name of her mother (Ellen Connolly), the name of the baptism sponsors, and the residence (Garryglass) are visible.

I believe there was another Ellen Connolly in Garryglass, married to somebody named Hayes. For now, I will take it on faith that this record is that of Mary McCarthy.

DNA Testing for Genealogy

2011-11-26T16:09:00.000-08:00

This is a presentation I am giving Sunday at the meeting of the British Isles Family History Society in Los Angeles on using autosomal DNA as a nice complement to your traditional genealogy research:

Guiding Your Ancestral Search with Autosomal DNA Testing

reading the online church records

2011-10-14T22:13:00.000-07:00

I get the feeling that a few people are frustrated searching the online church records so I thought I would point out a few things.

1) You can search with wildcard character in the first name field, within limits.

e.g., Cat* will match on Catherine Cathe Cate etc.

2) The first name field also accepts large boolean expressions. For example to search for an ancestor named Kate I would enter in the field:

(Cathe or Cath or Cats or Catha or Cathn or Cathne or Cate or Cat or Catherine or Catharine or Catherina or Catharina or Kath or Katherine or Kate or Katy or Katty or Kitty or Cotturim or Catharinam)

This might turn up a few more possibilities for you.

3) At first I thought the union of two wildcards would not work, but I just now got it to work:

(Hum* or Um*) will search for first name Humphrey.

My list of boolean expressions is growing steadily so I will post it up on my website. You can copy and paste these expressions into first name fields.

http://www.corkgen.org/publicgenealogy/cork/churchrecs/abbrev.txt

4) Some of the indexing is atrocious and causes more problems. Think about how your ancestor's name might have been misindexed. For example, I found some confusion between Humphry/Morty. I then thought Humphry could have been misindexed as Murphy and thus found more men named Humphry. Last night I found a Humphrey indexed as "Helen." I am not joking. Remember, these records were indexed by people who did not necessarily know the families in the locality you are searching.

Other pairs that cause confusion: L- versus S- e.g., Louney versus Souney, Lantry versus Santry. L---y could be Leary or Loony. P- and B- can be confused.

It almost goes without saying that if your name is Regan or Reagan you must check Ryan and vice versa.

5) Surnames are not as automatically cross-referenced as I would like. I cannot get boolean expressions to match for surnames but wildcards seem to work. Col* will turn up Collins, Coleman, etc.

6) Some townland names are hardly recognizable any more or grossly misspelled/misunderstood. I hope you are equipped with a good gazetteer or atlas or map. Once you crack a few mistranscribed townlands, the records will get easier to read.

seanruad.com and logainm.ie are good for looking up locations.

7) I repeat, look at the images. Get your eyes acclimated to the syntax of the church records. Look at lots of records.

My husband joked that there were a lot of women named "Hillary" in Ireland when what we were looking at was a phrase starting with "& Mary " .

Here's another example:
[child's Christian name] of [father's name] & [mother's name]
The "of" gets mistaken as a final "h" on the child's name - then the child's name may be transcribed incorrectly as Jeremiah or Johannah or something that ends with h.

Similarly, the abbreviation Pr (presence of) has been misread as the initial R.

8) Some questions have been raised about missing records. For gaps in records, drill down to the individual RC parish information at the Irish times website.

9) Some parishes have records that start relatively late and some information remains forever lost. There are multiple Skibbereen parish entities. From my earlier post - according to Skibbereen Heritage, Skibbereen & Rath were one parish until 1851. What is listed as Creagh & Sullon are the baptism records of this combined parish and then Skibbereen after 1851. Baptism and marriage records of Rath post 1851 are under Rath & Islands. Skibbereen & Rath start listing marriages in 1837.

10) If you think a record ought to be there and it isn't, make sure you review your assumptions about where your ancestors were at a given point in time and you have some other proof or basis for assuming they were in a specific location.

11) Priests transposed names into the wrong fields, and indexers may have picked up names off what is immediately preceding a record. There are all sorts of ways errors can be made.

12) The date in the index can be off. Check the entire page for the record, not just under the date the record is indexed by.

I have gotten a few date transpose errors from what I have obtained from other means.

13) Watch out for records that have been erroneously overwritten by a well-meaning transcriber from times past. An overwritten record in my Grandmom's family has been a major cause of confusion in my family for literally decades; there is something screwy about the way it is indexed at Skibbereen Heritage; and it has even caused confusion for other researchers outside the family. Daniel was overwritten with Denis. As a result, some in my family weren't sure what the first name of Grandmom's grandfather was.

---------------------------

I'm still working on finding everything online that Skibbereen Heritage has found for me and I haven't come close to finding everything yet.

Happy hunting.

Too many Humphreys

2011-10-12T15:13:00.000-07:00

So the big bombshell coming out of the release of additional Cork church records is that in my Granddad's side of the family there were multiple Humphreys in the Skibbereen area in the 1820's - 1840's. The majority of Humphrey Collins occurrences are out of Caheragh RC parish.

This really shouldn't be a surprise given that my uncle Humpsey had three similarly-named cousins of the same generation in school with him at the same time.

Before I get into searching for Humphrey Collinses in Caheragh, I thought I would mention this tip about searching the church records. The first name field can take a large boolean expression or a wild card - within limits.

If you want to search for John, enter: (Jn or Jno or John or Jon or Johannes or Joannes or Joannim or Johannam)

If you want to search for men named Morty, you can enter Mor*.

As far as I can tell, the first name field does not take a union of two wild card results. For example, if I want to search Hum* or Um* as a boolean expression, it doesn't work that way; however (Hum* or Ump*), with a minimum of three letters, may work.

Now the problem with Humphrey is that name - really any name - can be mistranscribed. I suspect a Morty Collins is really a Humphrey, and I also found a few occurrences of Murphy Collinses who are Humphreys.

When Skibbereen Heritage originally looked for my gg-grandfather Michael Collins, born about 1822, they were unable to locate a baptism record for a Michael son of Humphrey Collins and Johanna Barnane. And they probably searched Drimoleague & Drinagh as well. Humphrey and Johanna were married in early 1820 - though that marriage record has its problems - and the first child Catherine was born in December of that year - and that birth record has a few problems too. Then nothing until son John was born 1824.

So there is certainly a convenient slot for my gg-grandfather, whose birth year I estimated from the 1901 census. If he and his wife Ellen Driscoll were "old school" in the way they named their children, their first daughter might have been named after the paternal grandmother. That also fits, as daughter Johanna was born 1856. Ellen's mother was Margaret Loony.

Then the additional church records came online and I took a shot at searching for a baptism record for Michael and found one - born to a Humphry Collins and Ellen Sweeny in September 1822, and it looks like they were staying in Blue Hill (Knockgorm) at the time.

I went to Skibb Heritage and was told their records had that indexed as Morty. So I went on a fishing expedition and collected several handwriting samples and compared them. In the image below, the entry labeled 1822 in the left column was indexed as Morty at Skibb Heritage and Umpy on the church record site. The rest in the left column are indexed at the church record site as Humphry, Umpy, or Umphry or similar. The entries in the right-hand side are from Morty Hourihanes in Caheragh about the same time (so presumably handwritten by the same priests).

I think Morty is Umpy. And I can't dismiss this as some fluke or mistake. There is no other Michael born to a Humphry Collins. A Catherine Sweeny showed up at the wedding of Michael Collins and Ellen Driscoll in 1854. In fact, that Catherine Sweeny may have married just five days before to a Hourihane from Tooreen. Could Catherine Sweeny have been a cousin or aunt to Michael?

And then there's my DNA. I have a decent Family Finder match to somebody with Sweeny in his list of names. So far I haven't heard anything in response to my inquiries.

The online records have just opened up a whole new set of questions. There are no more records for Ellen Sweeny with this Morty/Umpy Collins. However, there is an Ellen Sweeny with a Denis Collins in Knockgorm shortly after, and they had several children.

The imagination can run wild here. I have not seen church records state whether parents are dead or alive. Could Morty/Umpy have been deceased and could Ellen Sweeny have remarried?

To get a better handle on the Humphrey Collinses running around, I decided to construct a timeline of sorts:

Where's Humphrey Collins?

Date	RC Parish	Event	Description	Spouse/companion
1820-Feb-15	D & D	marriage	Humphrey Collins & "Mary" Bernard(1)
1820-Jul-12	Caheragh	baptism	Anne Barrett	sponsor Humphry Collins
1820-Dec-02	Caheragh	baptism	Catherine Collins	parents Humphry Collins(2) Johanna Bernard
1820-Dec-17	Caheragh	baptism	Cornelius Keohane	Humphry Collins sponsor
1822-Sep-08	Caheragh	baptism	Michael Collins	parents Humphrey Collins(3), Ellen Sweeny
1824-May-18	Caheragh	baptism	John Collins	parents Humphry Collins, Johanna Barnane
1826-Feb-04	Caheragh	marriage	Charles Brien & Mary Collins	Humphry Collins & Mary Brien witness
1827-Sep-02	Caheragh	baptism	Mary Collins	parents Humphry Collins, Johanna Barnane
1828-Sep-20	D & D	baptism	Joan Mangan	mother Mary Collins, Humphry Collins sponsor
1829-Dec-13	Caheragh	baptism	Nory Collins	parents Humphry Collins, Johanna Barnane
1830-Mar-19	Caheragh	baptism	Pat Crimeen	Humphry Collins sponsor
1830-Oct-01	Caheragh	baptism	Catherine Minihane	Humphry Collins sponsor
1831-Aug-24	Caheragh	baptism	Denis Carthy	Humphry Collins sponsor
1832-Jan-20	Caheragh	baptism	Bridget Bary	Umphy Collins sponsor
1833-Feb-19	Caheragh	marriage	John Casey & Catherine Burke	Humphry & Michael Collins witness
1833-Feb-19	D & D	marriage	Cornelius Hourihan & Honora Casey	Humphry Collins witness
1833-Aug-07	Caheragh	baptism	James Collins	parents Humphry Collins, Johanna Barnane
1833-Oct-24	Caheragh	baptism	Jerry Coakley	Humphry Collins sponsor
1835-Dec-07	Caheragh	baptism	Johanna Collins	parents Humphry Collins, Johanna Barnane
1836-Dec-27	Skibbereen	baptism	John Collins	parents Humphry Collins, Mary Galvin
1838-Sep-16	Skibbereen	baptism	Margaret Collins	parents Humphry Collins, Mary Galvin
1839-Feb-05	Skibb & Rath	marriage	John Collins & Margaret Donovan	Humphry Collins witness
1839-Mar-14	Caheragh	baptism	Pat Collins	parents Humphry Collins, Ja(o)ne Barrett(4)
1840-Mar-25	Caheragh	baptism	Pat Coakly	Humphrey Collins sponsor
1841-Jan-19	Skibbereen	baptism	Mary Collins	parents Humphry Collins, Mary Brien
1843-Apr-02	Skibbereen	baptism	Johanna Collins	parents Humphry Collins, Mary Brien
1845-Oct-23	Skibbereen	baptism	Jerry Collins	parents Humphry Collins, Mary Collins
1846-Jan	Skibbereen	baptism	Pat Cadigan	sponsors Humphry Collins, Johanna Bernard(5)
1851-Mar-01	Caheragh	marriage	Catherine Collins & Denis Donovan	Humphry Collins & Johanna Collins witness
1854-Feb-28	Caheragh	marriage	Michael Collins & Ellen Driscoll	Humphrey Collins, Catherine Sweeny witness
1858-Jan-23	Caheragh	marriage	John Collins & Ellen McCarthy	Humphry Collins witness
1858-Jan-29	Caheragh	baptism	Humphry Collins	Humphry Collins sponsor
1858-Nov-19	Caheragh	baptism	Humphry(7) Collins	John Collins & Ellen McCarthy parents
1862-Mar-04	Skib & Rath	marriage	James Collins & Catherine Driscoll	Humphry Collins witness
1863-Apr-22	Kilmacabea	baptism	Humphry Collins	son of a Jerry?
1873-May-28	Caheragh	baptism	Timothy Collins	Humphry Collins sponsor
1875-Nov-07	D&D	baptism	Humphry Collins(6)	parents Patrick Collins,Catherine Collins
1879-May-14	Skibbereen	baptism	Denis Collins	Humphrey Collins, sponsor

1 - Skibb Heritage was of the opinion the priest made an error and this should have been Johanna.
2 - Another error - father is recorded as John and baptism sponsor Humphry.
3 - Probably my direct ancestral line.
4 - There is no confusion between Barrett and Barnane. The handwriting of Barrett is clear, and there were Barretts in Lissane. However, I haven't dug up a marriage record for a Humphrey Collins and a Jane/Joan Barrett, which makes me wonder if the priest was hard of hearing or what!
5 - Johanna Barnane was alive as late as 1846, which means that her husband couldn't have been married to Mary Galvin or Brien at the same time - therefore there was at least one other Humphry!
6 - Indexed as Helen!
7 - Whoever indexed this entry gave up entirely on the first name and just left it blank.

I can't figure out what was going on in 1833. Humphry went to two different Casey weddings on the same day?!? In fact his calendar was so full in 1833 it makes me wonder if he had time to farm.

Caheragh records start in mid-1818; Drimoleague & Drinagh mid-1817. Now, what about Skibbereen records? There are multiple Skibbereen parish entities. According to Skibbereen Heritage, Skibbereen & Rath were one parish until 1851. What is listed as Creagh & Sullon are the baptism records of this combined parish and then Skibbereen after 1851. Baptism and marriage records of Rath post 1851 are under Rath & Islands. Skibbereen & Rath start listing marriages in 1837.

Given that Mary Galvin and Mary Brien were baptizing their children in Skibbereen and not Caheragh, this information leads me to conclude that their marriage records fall out of range, so that information is forever lost.

I am curious about the names Galvin and Mangane. There are a few Galvins here and there. Mangane is rather uncommon. I get the feeling these names could be agnomens for another name. Brien, perhaps?

Ultimately, I am going to have to view every single image to decide for myself if the transcriptions are correct and if my assumptions are correct.

Some bingos and a bombshell

2011-10-03T22:34:00.000-07:00

Today the government of Ireland released the remainder of what it had intended to release of the south Cork church records. Thanks to this effort I have new insights on my Grandmom's Collinses, I believe I have a more conclusive link to the Mahonys in Bredagh, and I have discovered a bombshell in the Humphrey Collinses of Lissane, which really is just another insight.

First, some words about these church records. I can now better understand the delay for releasing them. The illegibility of some of these records made indexing and computerization very difficult, and no doubt there are substantial errors. In my own family I have discovered a number of errors already. Therefore, I encourage anybody reading this to take the time to browse the records, and to be very flexible with your searches. When new information becomes available one has to be ready to throw out some old assumptions.

Second, here's a little trick when searching for Christian names in the church records. You can build a search string as a large boolean expression. For example, to search for a woman named Catherine Neil, enter the following string into the name field:

(Cathe or Cath or Catherine or Catharine or Kath or Katherine or Kate or Kattie or Katy or Katty) Neil

The software engine is normally pretty good at cross-indexing surname variants. But not always. Again, I highly recommend browsing. And take a good look at the images, because there could be errors in the index. One day while browsing Skibbereen I noticed somebody with the surname Neil with something like Sheehy appended to it, as if Sheehy were a local nickname. That wasn't in the text index. You just never know what you'll find.

If you are researching south Cork like I am, read Nora Hickey's article, "What's in a Name?" Unfortunately, the website originally hosting this article has taken it offline, and you will be directed to the Internet archive. When you get to the archive, make a backup copy of it on your own computer to reference.

The article talks about some of the odd south Cork locality-specific secondary names you may be struggling with while researching your ancestry.

Thank God these records are finally online. It is better to have these illegible records with their dark smudgy illegible handwriting and indexing errors than to not have them at all.

Kilmeen Tithe Applotment Transcription now online

2011-09-30T19:09:00.000-07:00

A first draft transcription of the tithe applotment of Kilmeen is now online here.

Tithe Applotment of Kilmeen

An index for this transcription is here.

Kilmeen TA index

Please submit corrections/additional info here

Additions and corrections

More Skibbereen area TA transcriptions can be found here.

Skibbereen area TA transcriptions

Kilcoe Tithe Applotment Transcription now online

2011-09-27T11:51:00.000-07:00

A first draft transcription of the tithe applotment of Kilcoe is now online here.

Tithe Applotment of Kilcoe

An index for this transcription is here.

Kilcoe TA index

Please submit corrections/additional info here

Additions and corrections

More Skibbereen area TA transcriptions can be found here.

Skibbereen area TA transcriptions

Using Irish newspapers for inquest records

2011-08-26T17:07:00.000-07:00

As some visitors may recall, I ran into an insurmountable brick wall in my family history work researching a girl who was possibly related to my great-great-grandmother Ellen Driscoll Collins. Noria Driscoll was staying with her in the 1901 census in Lower Lissane:

When I first started investigating the link between Noria Driscoll and Ellen Driscoll Collins, I was researching Ellen Driscoll and thought that Noria could have been a niece. Her relationship to Ellen Driscoll Collins was not as I originally thought. It turns out the census record is not entirely accurate. Noria is listed as a niece to the head of household when she was in fact a granddaughter. On this census record, her grandfather was Michael Collins, her grandmother was Ellen Driscoll Collins, her uncle was Michael Collins, and her aunt was Noria Collins.

Through a process of elimination using civil registration birth records from around 1890 plus the 1901 census, I developed a hypothesis that Noria was from Currabeg, a townland in Castlehaven parish. The brick wall exists because I have been unable to locate her parents' marriage record or the death record of her mother, whom apparently died prior to the 1901 census.

Subsequent research showed that Noria drowned in February 1903, with the place of death noted as Lissane. The death record only listed the cause of death, the coroner and the date of the inquest, but there was no further information.

Skibbereen Southern Star news archives are online. I was unable to find any further information about her tragic death. I sent an email to the National Archives inquiring about the availability of inquest records for County Cork and did not hear back.

On one genealogy forum I visit regularly, another researcher asked a similar question, and I told him of my brick wall and how I ran into a dead-end asking about inquest records at the National Library. "JB" as I shall call him, was in Louth, and was planning to travel to Dublin for some sleuthing. Wisely, he decided to hit the newspapers.

JB emailed me telling me of his plans to go to Dublin and asked for the details of the inquest record I was seeking, which I thought was really kind. I had reached a point that I was totally annoyed with researching this family, and I was annoyed with the Southern Star for not reporting the drowning (yes - not logical). The S.S. noted other drownings about the same time, therefore in my frustration I had rationalized that because she was a schoolgirl, her death didn't merit any newspaper's attention. To validate my conclusion I had also searched the papers at irishnewsarchives.com and even the Irish Times archives, and still did not come up with anything.

Because I really didn't think JB would find anything, it didn't even occur to me to mention the existence of the Skibbereen Eagle newspaper, which I already knew about. Had I told him of that paper beforehand, I might have saved him about an hour of time at the library. I really didn't want him to spend a lot of time looking for something which I knew "wasn't there."

But JB looked at the County Cork newspapers available and figured out which one to look at. Here is a list of some of the papers available at the National Archives:

Cork Papers at NLI

In addition, Cork City Library has a very good newspaper collection:

Cork City Library Newspaper Archives

When I saw a copy of the story of Noria's drowning sitting in my inbox a few days later I was nothing less than stunned. JB also found a story referencing the death of one his relatives who suddenly took ill and died while enroute by ship to Ireland.

There were two valuable lessons we learned from this. JB noted that email to a repository body typically doesn't yield much, but when you go in person and talk to humans the outcome is often very different. Second, if there was a newspaper covering an area you are interested in at at the right time, then it indeed may give inquest details. So it can really pay off to wade through the newspapers.

In addition to my extreme gratitude to JB, I also felt vindicated when I read the story of Noria's drowning. The article confirmed her suspected origins. The article contained one error, naming her uncle as Michael Driscoll when in fact he was Michael Collins. (Her father was Michael Driscoll of Currabeg.) This is why it is so important that when you work on your family tree, you don't stop researching just because a name fills a slot. All records, whether from newspaper stories, from church records, or from civil registration, are vulnerable to errors, and so you must continue collecting evidence and see where the weight of that evidence falls.

This is probably about where Noria fell in the river. Even in *good* weather, that water looks terribly busy... map

Castlehaven and Myross Tithe Applotment transcriptions are available

2011-07-31T20:20:00.000-07:00

Tithe applotment transcriptions for Castlehaven and for Myross are now available online. These are first drafts only, they have not been processed with corrections yet.

You can access the Skibbereen area transcriptions here:
Skibbereen tithe applotment transcriptions

Please submit a correction here: fixit

Tithe Applotment Transcription of Ballymoney civil parish now online

2011-05-23T06:14:00.000-07:00

I wasn't planning on doing more transcriptions until I redesigned the indexing of existing TA transcriptions for Cork. Ballymoney was a bit of a rush job for Dunmanway Historical Society so they will have the data for the summer tourist season.

One problem that I have not resolved - I can't figure out where the enumerations are for Ballineen and for Ballynacarriga.

Ballymoney TA
http://www.corkgen.org/publicgenealogy/cork/titheapplot/ballymoney/

Skibbereen area TA links
http://www.corkgen.org/publicgenealogy/cork/titheapplot/corkgentithes.html

Please submit corrections here
http://www.corkgen.org/publicgenealogy/cork/titheapplot/fixit.php

General Cork County TA links
http://www.corkgen.org/publicgenealogy/cork/titheapplot/

Mahony battle plan

2011-05-03T08:09:00.000-07:00

Grandmom's Mahony ancestry is proving to be the most challenging to pin down, as no relatives know anything about them. The only clue I have is that the same Mahony names showing up on marriage and baptism records for Grandmom's family in Cullomane East also show up on marriage and baptism records for a branch of Granddad's family in Lissane. That, and that both the Margaret Mahony = Denis Collins marriage out of Lissane and the Mary Mahony = Daniel Collins marriage out of Cullomane actually took place in Drimoleague & Drinagh R.C. parish, possibly the home parish of the brides. From these coincidences I think Mary and Margaret were likely sisters.

Drimoleague & Drinagh, though, is so intertwined with Caheragh, that I am starting to think I cannot rule Caheragh out. It isn't outside the realm of possibility that a bride was living with somebody besides her immediate family, for instance, an uncle's family.

Skibbereen Heritage has done some preliminary searches for me. From what they have done I have managed to eliminate some possibilities. A family with names Cain, Denis, Daniel, Timothy, Mary, Margaret, and Catherine simply doesn't look like a family with names William and Ann. So I've done some elimination just based on name resemblance. The non-familiar names also tended to be further away (Lettergorman).

The family out of Bredagh remains the best contender, though a new plot element landed in my lap this morning. A family in Drimoleague I have not considered, Michael Mahony = Mary Henning of Drimoleague, had a son named Daniel. Ordinarily I would not pay attention to this record, except that one of my Family Finder DNA matches has the mother's surname as his own surname.

As I have accumulated Mahony data over the two years I have been doing research, I have constructed data chains from baptismal records (if I have them); tithe applotment; griffiths; and then civil registration, 1901 and 1911 censuses.

I am interested in marriages in the early years of registration, as these records are of events for people whose births were outside the reach of civil registration but whose parent may have been recorded in tithe applotment or Griffiths. The marriage records will list the groom's father's name, which is helpful. The problem with residence on a marriage record, though, is that the residence listed is not necessarily where somebody was born and grew up or subsequently ended up living. Farm laborers could have moved around to different farms.

Similarly, death records of those born before civil registration can be especially useful. I focus more on the older people, who obviously had time to marry and produce a family. The death records help me narrow down the point in time I might find that person in a baptismal record. Sometimes you get lucky on a death record, if the informant was a relative and stated where he or she lived. I've also gotten lucky even on infant death records, when the informant identified himself as an uncle.

Birth records help me reconstruct families I see in the censuses.

In my Mahony Excel workbook, my death spreadsheet has 33 references from the online civil registration index, with only 13 references resolved. The marriage spreadsheet has 28 index references on it with only four of them resolved. I even have 21 indexes references on a birth spreadsheet for 1864-1870 that would be worth looking at to eliminate them.

It is worth looking at the Ireland special collections at Family Search online to see if I can eliminate anybody on the worksheets, but those special collections are not exhaustive. However if I can eliminate a record before ordering the film for it or resorting to ordering it from GRO, all the better. It saves both time AND money. For my purposes I will not order any birth records from GRO before 1881, as 1864-1880 films are in the permanent collection at my local Family History Library and are available to me. Films are available to order for both marriages and deaths 1864-1870.

Collins family tree, version 1.0

2011-04-24T20:44:00.000-07:00

Skibbereen Heritage has done a great deal of research for me over the past two months that has answered many questions about my Grandmom's and Granddad's families.

Starting with Granddad, we researched "Part 2" of the Lissane Collinses, with the first part done last year. In the interim, I again hit the census records and civil registration films, and created three key family group sheets out of Lissane. I had these families partially carved out so I was then able to approach Skibbereen Heritage and ask to complete the families. We did - easily - and I have a flood of new information. John Collins (1824-1882) who was married to Ellen McCarthy and whom I thought was my great-great grandfather's brother now made a case for himself when we found his oldest known son was named Humphrey.

This family is lucky to have had the beacon name "Humphrey Collins", so I went to the Mormon Family Search website and started searching more globally for any Humphrey Collins out of Ireland. I found quite a bit. Some of these Humphreys have yet to be linked definitively to Lissane.

However, there is an amazing story of one Humphrey Collins who emigrated and settled in Newport, Rhode Island. His oldest son was named Dennis. There was a younger son named Humphrey. As I continued to trawl through Family Search, it looked like Humphrey Junior joined the US Navy and was stationed in San Diego. I then found an entry in the Social Security death record index and it turns out Humphrey Junior died in 1977 in the same town I now live in! He was in all likelihood Granddad's third cousin. And my Mom nor anybody else never knew.

I will be spending the coming years filling in more details about this Newport R.I. branch, of course. Apparently emigrant Humphrey came with a number of siblings, who all settled there.

Now for McCarthys. For a long time, it was clear that the Tooreen McCarthys were somehow related to McCarthys in Lissane. We didn't know precisely how. I again made family group sheets out of census, civil registration data, news archives, consulted Griffiths Valuation, tithe applotments for Caheragh and Drimoleague, the 1842 petition to Parliament contesting an election in County Cork, notes from my conversations with my aunt, and correspondence on the Lissane and Tooreen McCarthys. I hypothesized that the known patriarch in Lissane, Cornelius, was the son of an Andrew since the oldest son was called Andrew. My great-great grandfather Cornelius had seven daughters and no sons, so I didn't have that kind of hint. However, I went back to my aunt, and the first name that popped into her head was a "Charlie C. McCarthy" who was apparently Granddad's cousin. My hypothesis was then that the two patriarch Corneliuses were cousins, the Lissane one was the son of an Andrew, and born a few years earlier than my great-great grandfather, who might have been the son of a Charles. I went to Skibbereen Heritage with that information and we batted 1000. Right on all counts. At least, so far. I added that caveat because there are other McCarthy families in Lissane whom I don't know about. There could have been another Andrew, or another Charles.

Coincidentally, around the time Skibb Heritage was researching these McCarthys, the name "Tessie Young" popped into my aunt's head. Now in all this time that I have discussed family history with her, the name Young has never come up. But Tessie Young was a chemist (pharmacist) in Skibbereen town. Mom and all the children used to go into her shop regularly. Granddad, who walked around with all this family tree information in his head! declared that she was "a cousin." As it turns out, the mother of my great-great grandfather was one Margaret Young. In addition there was a Mary Young who was a baptismal sponsor of Bridget McCarthy, Granddad's aunt. The appearance of these names strengthens the case that we have found the right Charles.

Now for Driscolls. I ran into a solid dead end looking for the family of Noria Driscoll, the girl who drowned. So I had to go to Plan B. And what a great Plan B it turned out to be! The baptismal sponsors of the children of Michael Collins = Ellen Driscoll included an Andrew Maguire and a Johanna Maguire. Around the mid-1800's, the name Maguire was practically non-existent in Skibbereen. But Andrew and Johanna show up in Griffiths Valuation in Garrane, a townland in the extreme southwest corner of Caheragh parish. I don't know how the Maguires got there, as the name wasn't there in the Tithe Applotment. But it practically jumps out of Griffiths. Skibbereen Heritage started looking for Driscolls near Maguires and found some. Daniel Driscoll and Mary Looney had a daughter, Ellen, born 1830, who was probably my great-great-grandmother. That's what I was looking for. It's not an absolutely perfect match, there are some questions. The problem we have is that neither Ellen, nor her sister Mary, who married Andrew Maguire, were known to have a son Daniel, named after their father. But until more information comes to light, that's all I have to go on.

There are other McCarthys through Granddad. The origins of his maternal grandmother, Mary McCarthy, are somewhat more difficult to come by. We know she had some kind of relationship to Daniel McCarthy, the well-known Drinagh schoolteacher, probably aunt-nephew. We searched for Daniel's father Cornelius and found him. Cornelius's parents were Daniel McCarthy Knock and Ellen Connolly. Unfortunately, we could not find Mary's baptismal record. She would have been the youngest child, born 1836 or so.

However, an Ellen Connolly was the baptismal sponsor of Margaret McCarthy (1860) of Tooreen. Margaret was Mary's oldest daughter. That is the only "paper" thread I have linking the two families.

This all gets horribly confusing, as Mary McCarthy had both a brother named Cornelius and a husband Cornelius, and they were both born in 1824.

Skibbereen Heritage is currently looking into the Mahonys on Grandmom's side. This is a tough one. However, there is a rather interesting coincidence that has popped up, and it might lead us to the right Mahonys. The Mahony name recorded as a witness of the wedding of Daniel Collins = Mary Mahony (m. 1845) plus the Mahony names of the baptismal sponsors of the Cullomane Collins children are the same names as Mahonys who show up in one branch of Granddad's Lissane Collinses, that of the family of Denis Collins = Margaret Mahony. It gets even more interesting. There is something screwy about the way the Caheragh records are computerized. Lissane Collinses show up on the computer when looking for Cullomane Collinses, and vice versa. I am trying to guess what could be causing that error. Did the Caheragh priest get confused seeing the same crowd of Mahonys showing up for all the baptisms?

I am hoping something leaps out, but if not, I'll hit the civil registration films and census records again until I can define more families in the area, then try the search again.

Family trees are data models, which can change. They are not irrefutable laws of science. My job is now to continue studying whatever data is available, and continue comparing what I find with my data models. My second job is to figure out how to properly cite everything I have found

Kilmacabea Tithe Applotment Transcription now online

2011-04-14T07:35:00.000-07:00

A first draft transcription of the tithe applotment of Kilmacabea parish is now online. You may access it and other transcriptions here:

corgken.org TA Transcriptions

Please submit a correction here: Send a fix

Kilfaughnabeg Tithe Applotment Transcription Now Online

2011-04-02T07:39:00.000-07:00

A transcription of the Kilfaughnabeg Tithe Applotment (1829) is now online.

Corrections, annotations, enhancements and improvements to Kilfaughnabeg and all Tithe Applotment transcriptions remain ongoing.

Please submit corrections using this link: corrections.

Transcription of Aghadown Tithe Applotment is now online

2011-03-15T06:28:00.000-07:00

http://www.corkgen.org/publicgenealogy/cork/titheapplot/

Corrections, annotations, enhancements and improvements to Aghadown and all Tithe Applotment transcriptions remain ongoing.

Submit a correction here pretty please:
http://www.corkgen.org/publicgenealogy/cork/titheapplot/fixit.php

The drowning of Noria Driscoll, and some huge brick walls

2011-03-06T06:18:00.000-08:00

If you have read prior posts, you may recall that my family knows absolutely nothing about our ancestor named Ellen Driscoll, who married Michael Collins of Lissane 28-Feb-1854 in Caheragh RC parish. I wrote about a major lead to her identity in Miss Marple's Guide to Genealogy.

Even though I think I know where the niece Noria Driscoll was from, I ran into rather formidable dead ends trying to find out more about Noria's family. Noria's birth record lists the parents as Johannah Collins and Michael Driscoll. They live in Currabeg (the one at the north end of Castlehaven parish). In the 1901 census record for the Currabeg household, Michael was a widower. To the best that I can tell, the youngest child was born in 1895. Therefore Johannah Collins died between 1895 and the 1901 census. So I should be able to find her death record.

There's a problem. It isn't in the online index. At least so far, I haven't been able to find it.

Is there any way of estimating when Johannah and Michael married? The eldest daughter in the 1901 Currabeg record was Helena, age 19. So maybe the marriage took place in the early 1880's.

Nothing matched in the online civil registration index.

I went to the online church records. Noting that the Castlehaven & Myross records end in 1881 I wasn't sure I would find anything, but I did: a son. Jeremiah was baptized September 1880.

I went back to the online civil registration index to look for Jeremiah Driscoll. He wasn't there in the index either!

At this point I let some time elapse because this problem was starting to drive me a little mad. In mid-October 2010, I got access to all the civil registration data films in Salt Lake City. I went directly to the third quarter of 1880 film and I went directly to the pages for the Union Hall local office. No Jeremiah Driscoll. But - there was a Jeremiah Cadogan, born to a Michael Cadogan and Johanna Collins Cadogan !

I searched the church records for any indication of a child born before Jeremiah and couldn't find anything. Further searches of birth films before 1880 so far have not uncovered any earlier children.

I went back and searched marriages in civil registration again, expanding the search back to 1870, considering Cadogan, and using all the Johanna permutations I could think of: Ann, Hannah, Nora, Hanora, Honora, Joan, Joanna, Jane, etc.

I even considered the idea that Johannah Collins was a widow prior to marrying Michael Driscoll and that Collins was her prior married name. So I took "Collins" off the search and tried again. Still no luck.

It's obvious that there is something really strange about this family that I just don't understand!

I examined the 1901 Russagh census record of the household where Noria's sister Juliann was living. James and Catherine Collins listed her as a niece. Another person in the Russagh household was son Michael.

Somehow, in the Irish births and baptisms (special collections), I found a Michael Collins born to James Collins and Catherine Driscoll in 1871. Further searching of the church records turned up more siblings, and importantly, that they were in Russagh.

Now, was Juliann a niece through Collins or through Driscoll?!? Or even both?!?

There is more to the story. In the online index, a death record kept popping up in 1903 for a 13 year old girl named Hanora Driscoll. Sure enough, it was the girl in Lissane in the 1901 census. Death by suffocation. Coroner R. Neville held an inquest 24-Feb-1903.

I searched the local news archives in the hopes there was was a story, but the drowning of Noria Driscoll was too insignificant an event to attract attention from the local paper, even though there were other drownings with inquests held by the same coroner about the same time. I emailed a few Ireland record places about old Cork inquest records, but nobody who knows anything has emailed me back.

How's that for a nice big brick wall?

In looking at the original 1901 Lissane household record that has Ellen Driscoll Collins and lists Noria as a niece, I can't help but wonder if perhaps her uncle Michael or aunt Noria, also in the household, were the ones who stated she was a niece and so 10 year old Noria should actually have been listed as a granddaughter rather than niece to Ellen Driscoll's husband Michael Collins, the head of the household. The perfect person, agewise, to have been 10 year old Noria's mother would have been the oldest daughter out of Lissane, Johanna, born 1856. Johanna could have married a Driscoll who may or may not have been a distant relative. Even if I knew all this to be fact, however, does not help me get over the problem of not being able to find critical records.

Fortunately, I have one other lead to discovering the identity of Ellen Driscoll Collins. Along with Driscoll baptismal sponsors to the children of Michael and Ellen were an Andrew Maguire and a Johanna Maguire. Those two names stand out like a beacon in Griffiths Valuation for Caheragh. Maguires are practically non-existent in the area but these people were in Gurrane (the west side of Caheragh). Fortunately, according to the same valuation, there are some Driscolls in next-door Cooranuller whose first names match those of the baptismal sponsors. I know when Ellen died, so I can guess when she was born (about 1830).

Skibbereen Heritage is working on it now.

How I messed up looking for an ancestral record

2011-02-24T11:55:00.000-08:00

I just went through a very frustrating experience with the GRO office in Roscommon, which was in large part my fault. I thought I would mention what I did wrong here so others can avoid the same error.

My gg-grandmother's name was Mary McCarthy, and she died in the Skibbereen district. Searching for anybody named "Mary McCarthy" is a major challenge, to say the least, and one I try to avoid as often as possible. I wanted some confirmation of her age, so I'd have some idea as to where to start looking for her baptismal record.

All I knew was that she died some time after the 1911 census. I (correctly) assumed she died in the home in Tooreen that had been her and her husband's (Cornelius McCarthy), then her son-in-law's (Humphrey Michael Collins), then oldest grandson's (Michael Humphrey Collins). Since my Aunt Peg does not recall her death, I also (correctly) assumed Mary McCarthy died some time before Peg could remember (before 1929). This narrowed down where to search civil registration to 1911-1929. For good measure I went up to 1933, in case Aunt Peg for some reason didn't know about her g-grandmother's death. I had a reason for doing this, as apparently there was some kind of rift between Grandmom and her brother-in-law Michael Humphrey Collins's wife, and it could have affected how the two families might have interacted.

This left over two dozen records to consider. And I ended up ordering every one of them.

There were 26 possible records. I then expanded my thinking and considered the scenario that she had gone off to live elsewhere with one of her daughters. Even with that scenario, I was still able to easily eliminate 22 records. Among the reasons - a son was present at death (Mary and Cornelius McCarthy had seven daughters, no surviving sons); she died in the Workhouse; the deceased was a spinster; she wasn't a widow (my gg-grandmother was); her occupation or her spouse's occupation was wrong (gg-granddad Cornelius was a farmer). In two records there was a daughter present at death, but I know the names of daughters who emigrated, so I felt those records weren't right either. That left one record - the one I kept asking for and kept not getting.

GRO skipped over my gg-grandmother's death record. The reason this happened was because there were two elderly ladies named Mary McCarthy who died in Skibbereen, four years apart in age, and in the same quarter and year. This means they were in the same volume, and not only that but they also happened to be on the same page. If you think about it, the two records will look almost identical. Since they were on the same page, the two deaths were registered in the same local office, and probably written up by the same person, so the handwriting is the same.

And this is where I went wrong. I should have noticed the multiple entries on the same page and called that out in my letters to GRO. I had sent one letter specifying that she died in Tooreen, but that letter actually got lost in the mail. Every time I asked for the other record on the page GRO kept sending back the erroneous one.

The Mormon Family History Library sent me an image of the index. In an image editor I boxed in blue the index entry of the record I already had with the words ALREADY HAVE. And then I boxed in red the index entry of the record I was missing, with the words NEED THIS ONE. I enclosed that picture along with an explanation in my letter to GRO.

That did the trick. I now have my gg-grandmother's death record. But my joy at finding it was mixed with great annoyance, when I noticed that the record number (#379) was incrementally the one immediately following the one GRO kept sending back (#378). Even in the Ireland Registry Office they can get confused. One record can look exactly like another.

If you are searching for a very common name like Mary McCarthy, be aware of these pitfalls. Make sure you keep all your record requests in a spreadsheet. This will help you notice if you have multiple requests on the exact same page of the registry book. And fill in all the information in your spreadsheet when you get back records.

Fanlobbus Tithe Applotment Transcription (1826) now online

2011-02-23T19:20:00.000-08:00

It's an initial draft and has not yet been proof-read and corrected by the local historian in Dunmanway helping me. He's working on it.

Other Skibbereen area tithe applotment transcriptions already online are for the parishes of Abbeystrowry, Caheragh, Drinagh and Dromdaleague.

Skibbereen area tithe applotment transcriptions

It's just the census, not gospel

2011-02-01T23:29:00.000-08:00

I've been looking at a census record that has several errors on it and I thought it would be worthwhile pointing out the kinds of errors that were made.

The record in question is for a household named Donovan in the 1911 census in Ardagh East in the electoral district of Rosscarbery in Cork.

James Donovan is listed as head of household, age 47. According to his baptismal record, his age is off by two years, a relatively minor error.

Moving further to the right, he is listed as a farmer and single. Then to the right of that, it shows he is married 50 years, had three children and three were still living.

A 47 year old man cannot be married 50 years. Clearly that statistic belongs to the next person listed, his mother Johanna, age 78, a widow.

I know from researching my family that Johanna was Johanna Collins of Adrigole, and that she married John Donovan some time before June of 1852, when the first child I know about, Mary (Maria), was born. I also know that they had at least seven children.

The next person in the household is Nora, listed as a daughter, age 35 (she was going on 42, going by her baptismal record). She is listed as the daughter to the head of household, when she should be listed as his sister. The same applies to the next person, Maggie, age 36 (haven't located Maggie's baptismal).

The number of children born is listed as 3, which is erroneous. James presumably didn't have children. His mother gave birth to at least 7. So where does that 3 come from?

In his 1915 obituary, at least five sisters were still alive to attend his funeral. So the 3 in the 1911 census under the column for number of children still living is erroneous.

I had to rely on other sources (church records, Southern Star archives) to extract the right information out of this record.

Abbeystrowry Tithe Applotment transcription now published

2010-12-31T22:52:00.000-08:00

Version "1.0" of the Abbeystrowry tithe applotment is now online but has not yet been proof-read and corrected.

There are now four Skibbereen area tithe applotments online: Abbeystrowry, Caheragh, Drinagh, and Dromdaleague. They can be accessed here.

A new census substitute in Dunmanway

2010-12-31T19:09:00.000-08:00

From West Cork People dated December 2010:

The Dunmanway Historical Society has recently had restored a Parish Accounts Book. In the words of the magazine:

This is an account of the income and expenditure associated with the building of St Patrick’s Church in Dunmanway during the period 1832 to 1848. This book was maintained by Fr James Doheny who was Parish Priest in Dunmanway from 1818 to his retirement in 1848, and is a testimony to his meticulous accounting of the parish finances as it details all who contributed to the building of the Church. In effect it is a census of all subscribers, street by street and townland by townland.

Fr Doheny also gives a very detailed account of all expenditure for the period, detailing the various sources of the materials used in the building ranging from the various quarries from which the stone was procured to the Altar and altar fittings from Lyons in France. It also gives us the names of all the tradesmen who worked on the church as well as the quarrymen, labourers and horsemen.

This book lay hidden in the presbytery for years until it was discovered last year by Fr. Ted Collins. “It is the most significant and historic discovery in the parish for quite some time”; so said Tommy Collins, Chairman of the Historical Society.

The book has now been expertly restored and preserved for posterity by Mucros Bookbindery in Killarney.

If your ancestors were in Dunmanway around that time, you may want to contact the Dunmanway Historical Society or pay a visit to the Dunmanway Heritage Centre and make further inquiries.

The Roots of Jeremiah O'Donovan Rossa

2010-12-02T15:30:00.000-08:00

Jeremiah O'Donovan Rossa (Diarmuid Ó Donnabhain Rosa 1831-1915), was a well known nationalist and Fenian leader. In my opinion, he was an Irish genealogist's dream. In his published recollections he not only devoted chapters to his birth and early upbringing, but there is even a chapter labeled "Genealogy." Okay, I am ignoring the part where he claimed he traced the family back to Biblical times. He's got enough interesting material to make it worth digging into the recent past.

He mentions so many people and places in his recollections, and not just his family, I thought it would be fun to track some of these people and places down. (Keep in mind that there are Donovans doing lots of genealogy research who have probably filled in many of my blanks! I'm just doing this to see what records prove useful.)

Here goes.

...On the tombstone it is recorded that Father Power died on the 10th of August, 1831. I was at his funeral; I heard my mother say she was 'carrying' me that day. It is recorded in the parish registry that I was baptized on the 10th of September, 1831; that my godfather was Jerrie Shanahan, and my godmother Margaret O'Donovan. When I grew up to boyhood I knew her as Aunty Peg. She was the wife of Patrick O'Donovan Rua, and was the sister of my mother's father, Cornelius O'Driscoll. Jerrie Shanahan's mother was Julia O'Donovan Rossa - my father's uncle's daughter...Jerrie Shanahan is my second cousin, and my godfather.

A look at the church records of ROSSALETTIRI & KILKERAUNMOR (ROSCARBERY & LISSEVARD) shows two babies named Jeremiah Donovan born in 1831 (abbreviated Jerh). One Jerh Donovan was born in Ross, baptized September 4, father Denis Donovan, mother Ellen Driscol, sponsors Jer Shanahan and Margt Driscol.

I am more than three years older than my brother Conn...

Searching the church records for children of Ellen Driscoll and Denis Donovan turns up the following siblings:

John 18 Apr 1828
Cornelius (Cors) 19 Jun 1834
Mary 7 Dec 1837

Well, not quite three years older but close!

The household of Renascreena consisted of my grandfather Cornelius O'Driscoll, my grandmother Anna ni Laoghaire [note: O'Leary], my aunts, Nance, Johanna, Bridget, Anna; my uncles Denis, Conn, and Michael. Michael was the youngest in the family. He keeps the old homestead now (1896).

It doesn't get much better than that!

Notice that his grandfather was called Cornelius and there was also an uncle Conn. One of these men likely shows up in Griffith's Valuation in the civil parish of Ross in Reanascreena North. There are other Cornelius Driscolls in the same parish in the townlands of Derryduff, Downeen, and Maulyregan. Further research would be needed to distinguish them.

The Tithe Applotment for Ross was taken in 1834. The FHL film number for the civil parish of Ross is 256681. To pursue this further, I'd have to rent that film at the local family history library and look at Ross in detail. However, a kind soul out there has provided an online transcription of the Rosscarbery area.

I am not entirely certain how to interpret the transcription. But it looks as if a Cornelius Driscoll was in Downeen and there was one in Rainascreeny (Reenascreena) North. There is a Denis Driscoll in Downeen (Jeremiah had an uncle Denis Driscoll). It would certainly be worth looking at the the Ross TA film.

Notice also a Jerry Shanihan in Downeen in the TA, and also in Curriheen [Curraheen].

A map is an essential tool for looking at such data. Perusing such a map, it's easy to see that Reenascreena and Carrigagrenane are neighboring townlands. They lie north of Rosscarbery. Downeen and Curraheen are also close together, though they are on the other side of Rosscarbery. In any case, they are all local to each other, which matters.

Here is Jeremiah's uncle Michael Driscoll in the 1901 census.

Continuing with his narrative:

...In the family, had been four more daughters. Mary, married to John O'Brien; Margaret, married Jer Sheehan, of Shanava [note: his baptismal sponsors]; Kate, married to Martin O'Donovan Ciuin, of Sawroo; whose son is Martin O'Donovan of San Francisco; and Nellie, the oldest of the children, married, at the age of fifteen, to Denis O'Donovan Rossa, of Carrig-a-grianaan [note: Carrigagrenane], whose son I am.

Yes, married at the age of fifteen, my mother was, and born thirteen years after she was married, was I.

His mother Nellie (Ellen) Driscoll would have been about age 28 in 1831, so her birth year was about 1803, and the year of the Nellie Driscoll-Denis Donovan marriage was around 1818. Unfortunately the Rosscarbery church records don't go earlier than 1821, so it doesn't look like church records will help us. Maybe as more church records come online, we can find information about his parents' siblings.

By the way, the family nickname Rossa comes from Rossmore, not Ross or Rosscarbery. If I post a followup, I will elaborate on that - and Donovans - in more detail. In the meantime, here is a Rootsweb thread created by descendants of the Donovans.

Mahonys in Skibbereen

2010-11-19T11:05:00.000-08:00

I have started snooping around in Bohernabredagh (often just abbreviated Bredagh) because there is a chance my great-great-grandmother Mary Mahony was the daughter of a Denis Mahony of this townland.

Mary Mahony married Daniel Collins 4-Feb-1845 in the old Drinagh chapel in the Roman Catholic parish of Drimoleague & Drinagh. Witnesses included Denis Mahony, possibly her father.

Daniel Collins shows up in Cullomane East in Griffiths Valuation and the first child I know about, Mary, was baptized 1-Feb-1852. Mahony baptismal sponsors for the Collins children were Kean (Cain), Daniel, Catherine (Kate), and Timothy.

In the 1901 census Mary Mahony Collins was in Cullomane age 75. The census says she is married but in fact her husband Daniel Collins had died in 1894. She died in August that census year, estimated age 75, making her birth year possibly 1826, maybe a little before.

There is a Denis Mahony in the Dromdaleague tithe applotment in Bredagh, possibly her father. A Denis Mahony is in Bredagh in Griffiths Valuation. It could be the same Denis as in the TA, or possibly a descendant.

I have tallied the following names from the Abbeystrowry, Caheragh, Drinagh, and Dromdaleague Tithe Applotments, keeping in mind that the 1845 marriage took place in Drimoleague & Drinagh RC parish:

Cain Mahon(e)y
Clover Hill (Abbeystrowry)
Inchingerig (Caheragh)

Daniel Mahon(e)y
Kilnaclasha (Abbeystrowry)
Lissalohorig (Abbeystrowry)
Minanes (Drinagh)

Denis Mahon(e)y
Baurnagowlane (Dromdaleague)
Bredagh (Dromdaleague)
Clashduff (Dromdaleague)
Ceancullig (Dromdaleague)
Kealanine (Caheragh)
Minanes (Drinagh)
Seehanes (Dromdaleague)

Timothy Mahon(e)y
Cooranuller (Caheragh)
Derreenavarihy (Caheragh)
Minanes (Drinagh)

I know the tithe applotments could be too early for brothers of Mary Mahony named Cain, Daniel, or Timothy to be showing up, but, as is so often the case, closely related families often carry the same names. When Skibbereen Heritage researched Mary Mahony for me, they came up with two potential Denis Mahonys as fathers:
12-Sep-1823 (Bredagh)
22-Aug-1819 (Lettergorman)

The best concentration of "matching" names is in and surrounding Bredagh. And although there are no Mahonys in Lettergorman in the TA, Minanes is not far away, where there is another good concentration of matching names.

There are also Cains, Denises, Daniels, and Timothys in various parts of Skibbereen in Griffiths Valuation. A Denis Mahony is in Lettergorman.

One Timothy Mahony, age 31, died 14-Apr-1864, in Driminidy; brother Cain Mahony of Clashduff was the informant. Driminidy and Clushduff are within shouting distance of Bredagh. Cain Mahony, age 92, died 2-Feb-1904, in Clashduff. He was in the 1901 census in Tonafora. Again, this is within shouting distance of Bredagh. Within Bredagh, the 1901 census shows Denis Mahony, age 53, HoH, with possibly batchelor brother Cain, age 60. Cain died 4-May-1910, reported age 82, throwing the question of his age up in the air. Were I to look for him among baptismals, I would probably start by what the death record estimates.

There is no assurance, of course, that Denis Mahony is the father of my Mary Mahony, but that is all I have to go on at the moment. It is probably worth noting that the second known son of Mary Mahony and Daniel Collins was named Denis, who happened to be my great-grandfather.

The name Cain O'Mahony stands out, and it may be extremely old (many many centuries). I have read literature that derives Cain from Enniskean, a place name. The same name belonged to a man whose family had a store on Townsend Street in Skibbereen, at least from the mid-1800's. He was mentioned in Jeremiah O'Donovan Rossa's book. There is a picture of that gentleman here.

Humphrey Collins of Lissane

2010-11-06T16:10:00.000-07:00

The Humphreys of Lissane (pdf file here) have put me in an agonizing state of "not knowing" equally as intense as that of the Larrys over in Adrigole - my Grandmom's paternal Collins line. The Humphreys are the paternal Collins line of my Grandfather.

Granddad John Humphrey Collins (b. 1895) was the son of Margaret McCarthy of Tooreen (b. 1860) and Humphrey Michael Collins (b. 1858) of Lower Lissane (m. 1890). Humphrey Michael is nicknamed "Humphrey Mickey", and his father, Michael Collins, is nicknamed Mickey. Mickey Collins married Ellen Driscoll 1854. Mickey and Ellen are in the 1901 census together in Lissane. How lucky for me, as he died a few weeks after. The census gave an age estimate, leading me to believe Mickey was born about 1822.

After the first known daughter Johanna (b. 1856), Humphrey Mickey was the first boy. Another mysterious Humphrey Collins was a baptismal sponsor. An elderly Humphrey Collins died in 1873, with his age estimated as 88, so he would have been born about 1785. The death record shows the mark of a Humphrey Collins, present at death, which got me thinking. Was the old man an informant of his own death?!? Was the informant a teenage Humphrey Mickey? Or was there there another Humphrey Collins about?

Obviously I am joking in the first case. I don't think think Humphrey Mickey was the informant, as he was literate and he could have signed his own name on the death record. So I am inclined to think option #3.

A Humphrey Collins and Michael Collins were together in the 1827 Caheragh Tithe Applotment. From these facts I have developed the hypothesis that Humphrey Mickey's father Michael's father was probably 1785 Humphrey.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. There are lots of Collinses in Lissane and the families there have historically been tangled up with each other. Humphrey is the "breadcrumb" trail I have been following, since it is so easy to spot. I have identified a number of Collins families in Lissane in the latter part of the 19th century.

Michael Collins & Ellen Driscoll (m. 1854)
I'll start with my own direct line, Mickey Collins and Ellen Driscoll. Marriage (28-Feb-1854, Caheragh) witnesses included Humphrey Collins. Children were Johanna (1856, bap sponsor Johanna Collins), Humphrey Mickey (1858, bap sponsor Humphrey Collins), Catherine (1860, bap sponsor John Collins), John (1862), Honora (1865, bap sponsor Mary Brien), Michael (1867), Margaret (1870), and Ellen (1875, bap sponsor John Collins).

I have a theory that 1865 Honora, or Nora, might have been the wife of Michael Lynch of Coolnaclehy (m. 1903), as according to my Aunt Peg, Granddad had Lynch cousins in Coolnaclehy (John and Hannah) who were first cousins. I think these cousins are in the 1911 census. But unfortunately I cannot find the marriage record in the online indexes to confirm Nora's origin.

Son Michael is with Mickey and Ellen in the 1901 census along with sister Honora "Noria" and cousin Noria Driscoll. And I think that is Michael in the 1911 census along with wife Nora, and children Michael, Humphrey, Hannah, and Jamsey, as well as his elderly mother Ellen Driscoll Collins. Michael's son Humphrey is registered 3-May-1903, and his mother was a Hannah Collins. So Michael was widowed with Nora being his second wife.

Humphrey Michael Collins & Margaret McCarthy (m. 1890)
Humphrey Mickey, the son of Mickey, married Margaret McCarthy of Tooreen (b. 1860). Humphrey Mickey went to go farm the Tooreen farm, as Margaret's parents Mary and Cornelius McCarthy had no son. Their children were Michael (bap Oct-1891); Patrick (bap Mar-1893); Cornelius (bap May-1894); John (my Granddad, Jul-1895); Mary Kate (1897); Humphrey (21-May-1898, from civil reg); James (Nov-1899); Ellen (1901); Denis (Oct-1902); and Margaret (6-Mar-1906). Margaret McCarthy died three days after giving birth to baby Margaret, and the baby died that August. My aunt tells me that Humphrey Mickey never got over this, and likely lived in a state of despair until he died shortly after (in 1910).

The orphaned children are in the 1911 census, with their widowed grandmother Mary McCarthy taking care of them (she was there helping out in 1901 too.) The farm went to the oldest son, Michael Humphrey Collins, who married Ann (Nan) Morris, and had several children, among them a Patrick Joseph Collins, (b. Jun-1925, possibly d. Aug-2000 in England), and Michael (d. Oct-2009, Tooreen).

Denis Collins & Margaret Mahony (m. before 1864)
One Denis Collins married one Margaret Mahony, unknown when or where. Children include, but are not necessarily limited to (from civil registration records): Denis 8-Jan-1866, probably died as infant; James 10-Dec-1866; Margaret 4-Dec-1868; Helena 20-Sep-1870 (may have had a twin Johanna or Honora); Patrick (17-Mar-1872); Timothy (1-Jul-1873 - not confirmed from civil reg yet); and Denis (1876 - not confirmed from civil reg yet). Denis is HoH, age 70 in the 1901 census, Bredagh DED, with wife Margaret, sons Patrick and Denis. In 1911, Denis HoH is age 80, with wife Margaret, sons Denis and Patrick, plus granddaughter Margaret McCarthy.

I think the censuses could have underestimated the age of Denis, as a death record in 1919 shows a Denis Collins of Lissane age 96. Or, the death record might be wrong.

There is more to this story. One Humphrey Collins, born about 1864, emigrated around 1889 and shows up in the 1900 US Census in Newport, Rhode Island, USA. The oldest son in his family is named Dennis. Looking further, the date of Humphrey's immigration can be traced to 7-May, 1890, on the ship Samaria, port of Boston. Looking further still, in the Rhode Island marriage records, the spouse of this Humphrey Collins was a Delia Lydon, they married in 1893, and his parents are listed as Dennis Collins and Margaret Mahoney! According to the Rhode Island death records, Humphrey died 14-Apr-1916.

I've looked, but have been unable to find this Humphrey Collins in the Ireland civil registration in 1864, at least in Skibbereen. Knowing the minefields that spring up in Irish genealogy, I am painfully aware there could be another couple named Denis Collins and Margaret Mahony to confuse the issue, but as the name Humphrey Collins from Ireland is such an uncommon name, for now I am hanging on to the theory that Humphrey Collins of Newport, R.I. was from Lissane.

John Collins & Ellen McCarthy (m. before 1863)
Children in this family include Denis (est 1863); Johanna (9-Jun-1865); Honora (5-Aug- 1867); Catherine (3-Jun-1869); and John (26-Feb-1872). The last known child is super important; on his birth record it says "Humphrey Collins, present at birth."

John, the father, died young, age 55 years, in 1882. That would place his birth year around 1827.

I believe the son Denis is in the 1901 census, with wife Nora. Children listed are Mary E (Ellen?), and Hannah. His elderly mother Ellen is with them.

Hardly a day goes by when I don't scour the Southern Star news archives, and I think this Denis is the "Denis J. Collins" I've seen in news articles.

Who was the Humphrey who was present at the birth of this John Collins?

James Collins & Honora Collins (m. before 1864)
Known children include Catherine (9-Dec-1864); Honora (15-Nov-1866); Michael (20-Oct-1868); Johanna (10-Dec-1870); Helena (3-Apr-1873); Julia (25-Aug-1874); and James (20-Oct-1876). There is no obvious connection to the Humphreys, except perhaps via the oldest son Michael's name. I'll get to that. James and Nora are in both the 1901 and the 1911 census. In the 1911 census they are in their son Michael's household.

...

Those are the main family lines out of Lissane that I know about. Finally, I found a death record for an elderly Michael Collins, d. 1870, age 80, so he was born about 1790. Mary Collins was present at death.

I have gathered much more data on Humphreys in the townlands surrounding Lissane. But for my initial phase of research, I limited my data to these families. (I will post on these other Humphreys another time.) After spending close to a year gathering all this data, I went to Skibbereen Heritage Centre, proposed that 1785 Humphrey and 1790 Michael were brothers or cousins, that Humphrey was the father of 1822 Mickey, and then asked for research on the two lines. Margaret (God bless her) did so quite diligently and spent some time doing it. She checked and rechecked whatever she had available. Her research was a great lesson to me, showing that errors in genealogy records start right on the baptismal and marriage records.

Anyway, this is what Skibbereen Heritage found:

Humphrey Collins & Johanna Barnane (m. 1820)
One Humphrey Collins married a Mary Bernard at the Old Chapel in Drinagh, 15-Feb-1820.   Bernard can be a form of Barnane, so there isn't any confusion about the surname at this point. However, further evidence indicates that the bride's Christian name was not Mary but rather Johanna.

One Catherine Collins was born 2-Dec-1820 in Caheragh R.C. parish to John Collins and Johanna Barnane. Humphrey Collins and Catherine Hurley were witnesses.   Spotting another potential error, Margaret was convinced that the father's name John and the sponsor's name Humphrey were transposed, so that Humphrey Collins and Johanna Barnane were the parents. Additional children were discovered with parents Humphrey and Johanna, plus, Margaret was unable to find any baptismals of children to a Humphrey Collins and Mary Bernard.

Other children of Humphrey and Johanna were: John (1824, Mary Donovan among sponsors); Honora "Norry" (1829); James (1833, sponsor Mary Barnane); and Jeremiah (1835).

One child was discovered with the mother's name Jane Barrett: Patrick (14-Mar-1839). Ordinarily, I might have thought the priest didn't get Johanna Barnane quite right. Barrett and Bernard can sound similar. Jane is often cited as an interchangeable form of Johanna. But in this case I think there is a possibility Johanna Barnane and Jane Barrett were two different women. Baptismal sponsors were James Barrett and Ellen Barrett, and there was a James Barrett right there in the Caheragh tithe applotment. Unfortunately, I may not be able to resolve this question.

There are more children found, outside of Caheragh, in the R.C. parish of Skibbereen & Rath, born to Humphrey Collins and Mary Brien or Mary Collins. I don't know if 1785 Humphrey had multiple wives, or if there was yet another Humphrey running about. It's kind of late for somebody born 1785 to be having kids in the 1840's, you think?!?   Even Patrick (1839) sounds a bit late for old man Humphrey. The other children of Humphrey are: Mary (19-Jan-1841); Johanna (2-Apr-1843); and Jerry (23-Oct-1845).

The BIG problem with these records is that Skibbereen Heritage was unable to find a baptismal record for Mickey. So his connection to this family is still not conclusively proven. There is a convenient slot for him though, between Catherine in 1820 and John in 1824.

Michael Collins & Mary Donovan (m. before 1823)
Margaret was unable to find a marriage record for Michael Collins and Mary Donovan, but she did manage to find several children. Margaret (27-Nov-1823); James (1-Feb-1829, sponsor Johanna Barnane?); Humphrey (1-Aug-1831, sponsor Catherine Collins); Catherine (15-May-1833); Michael (2-Jul-1837); and Jane (4-Aug-1840, sponsor Jerry Collins).

This son Michael cannot be the Mickey who married Ellen Driscoll, as he would have been alarmingly young (17?!?). It doesn't fit.

I think this same son Michael is the "Michael W. Collins" I see in the Southern Star archives.

...

I have a few death records for elderly men named James Collins but neither are in Lissane. It is unclear which family - the Humphrey line or the Michael line - that James in the census came from, but I am inclined to think the Michael line, as the first (known) son of James and Nora Collins is named Michael.

...

On our recent trip to Salt Lake City, I obtained images of Registry of Deeds memorial #371769, as it mentions a Denis Collins, a farmer in Lissane. It turned out he was only serving as a witness to an agreement between a landlord and a tenant. Still, the date of the agreement (1803) compels these questions. Who were the Collinses of Lissane? Were they related to each other? Where did they come from?

Margaret was unable to link elderly Denis Collins to 1785 Humphrey and 1790 Michael, but she did notice a Denis Collins over in Tonafora, in the backyard of Lissane. I have filed that piece of information in the back of my brain, knowing there could be a connection to the aforementioned Denis in the Registry of Deeds.

I am hoping that a few of these unanswered questions will be resolved when more church records come online. The most pressing question, of course, is WHY are we unable to find a baptismal record for Michael Collins 1822.

The Adrigole brick wall, part 2

2010-11-02T12:55:00.000-07:00

Since my last post about the brick wall in Adrigole, much more information has emerged, though not what I need to conclusively prove who my gg-grandfather's family was.

Skibbereen Heritage did indeed successfully find a marriage between Daniel Collins and Mary Mahony. After all our unsuccessful searches through the baptismals, poor Margaret at Skibb Heritage was probably starting to think I was deluded about "Danny Larr" my gg-grandfather, but she did find a marriage between a Daniel Collins and a Mary Mahony that took place 4-Feb-1845 at St. Finbarr's in Drimoleague R.C. Parish. The Daniel Collins recorded came out of Castlehaven parish. One of the witnesses was a John Collins - which doesn't necessarily prove that this is the same John I currently believe was Danny Larr's brother thought to have been born in Adrigole in 1818 - but at least it is not, say, Timothy Collins, a name I have never seen in my family.

Danny Larr and Mary Mahony somehow ended up in Cullomane East. I have yet to discover how or why.

Skibb Heritage found eight children born and baptized in Caheragh R.C. Parish. I believe the baptismal found for a James Collins (Dec-1866) is an error, somehow confused with a James Collins born to a Denis Collins and a Margaret Mahony in Lissane. Coincidentally, James could be a distant relative, but on Granddad's side, not Grandmom's side, which is the Adrigole Collinses. Aunt Peg has never heard of a James among Danny Larr's children. Civil registration is very clear about who the parents were and the location. So we are leaving James off the Cullomane branch of Adrigole Collinses.

The oldest Cullomane child was Mary, who also went by Maria. She was born in 1852. She married Cornelius Collins in Knockgorm and among the children were daughters Nora McCarthy and Kate Ann Fitzgerald. Nora married Michael McCarthy of Derryduff, Drimoleague in 1909. Nora raised Grandmom after Ellen Hurley died. I am not yet sure when Kate Ann married her husband Dick (Richard). What I've seen in the civil registration indexes conflicts with what I have seen in the news archives. I was told that Kate Ann and Dick had a pub up in Clonakilty - the Brewer's Arms, or something like that. I was also told that among Mary's children was a son Cornelius. Cornelius may have ended up in Liverpool. Aunt Peg vaguely remembers a visitor from Liverpool showing up at the family doorstep - Auntie can't remember if they were still living in Bauravilla or Bunalun, but she does remember they could "barely understand a word" said.

The second Cullomane child was named Diana, born 1854. Since Diana (or Dinah) Collins is a practically non-existent name coming out of Ireland and one of my "breadcrumb" names, I have tried to trace her. A Diana Collins from Ireland, age 20, arrived on the ship Manhattan in New York in September of 1893. After that her trail goes cold.

I don't know anything about the third Cullomane child, Jeremiah, born 1856, other than that he may have gone by William. A William Collins was a witness to the marriage of Denis Collins and Ellen Hurley in 1904.

Margaret, the fourth Cullomane child, was born 1858. I may have a clue about what happened to her, and will get back to her momentarily.

The fifth Cullomane child, born 1860, is my great-grandfather, Denis, or Denny Dan Larr, who died in late 1930.

After Denis came Johanna, born early 1863. She shows up living with Denny Dan Larr and his first wife in the 1901 census, after that nobody knows where she vanished to.

The youngest Cullomane child was Daniel, born 1865. We know quite a bit about Daniel now, who went on to join the Royal Irish Constabulary. I have been in touch with one of his grandchildren.

There are two odd facts emerging from this group of children. One is the gap between the marriage (1845) and the first child Mary (1852). The famine undoubtedly played a role here, and may have had to do with the family ending up in Cullomane East. There may have been other children born elsewhere, leading to the second odd fact that there is no obvious child named Lawrence in this branch of Larrs, even though this branch produced Lawrences (including some in generations that I don't publicly publish). I am hoping that the church records that come online at the end of the year will shed some light on these puzzles.

There are odd Lawrences and Dianas popping up elsewhere whom I cannot place into the family tree. There was a Lawrence Collins in the Kilmcabea tithe applotment, I believe out of Coornishal. News stories mention Collins cousins out of Coornishal.

A Lawrence Collins married a Mary Hayes in 1866, and their marriage record says they were each living in Ballyriree. His age is given as 24. I think they went on to live in Ballyvoureen in the Rosscarbery area - they show up in censuses. I don't know how they fit or whether they fit into the Adrigole puzzle.

Another interesting family producing a Lawrence Collins came out of Licknavar and may have lived in Gortshanecrone, south of Skibbereen town. I don't know how they fit in. In the 1911 census this family so closely resembled Grandmom's family that for a while I was confused thinking it was her family.

The Licknavar/Gortshanecrone family is a different family from the family of James and Catherine Collins in Knockaphreanane, whom I do know about and who are related, though I am unaware of any sons named Lawrence. In part 1 I confused this family with the Knockaphreanane family.

Diana Collins of Adrigole, whose father was named Lawrence, married Timothy Sullivan of Clooncugger in 1868. A Jeremiah Collins was a witness. This Dinah Sullivan died in 1892, age 54, placing her birth around 1838 if that is accurate. Daughter Bridget was present at death. There was a Jeremiah Collins baptized in 1846 to a Lawrence Collins and Catherine Neil. It is not conclusive that Dinah Collins Sullivan was his sister. There is no baptismal record linking Diana to Catherine Neil. The relatively late birth dates of Dinah and Jeremiah suggest to me that there was a Lawrence who was a son of Larr (and a brother of Danny Larr). Otherwise I would have to consider the possibility that Larr was churning out children at least between 1814 and 1846 - over a 32 year range - not likely.

Yet more news archive stories turned up Donovans in Ardagh, Rosscarbery, who were cousins of Adrigole Collinses. Further research in the online church records turned up parents Johanna Collins and John Donovan, married probably before 1856. Among their children was a Dinah Donovan. For the time being I have placed Johanna Collins as a daughter of Larr (therefore a sister of Danny Larr), though I have no conclusive proof of that.

Following more breadcrumb Dianas, I obtained the birth record of a Diana Collins born in 1893 to a Margaret Collins and a John Collins. This was in Cullomane, right in our backyard! I am waiting for the marriage record of a John Collins and a Margaret Collins in Bantry to see if this Margaret was the fourth Cullomane child of Danny Larr. If this is the correct marriage record for John Collins and Margaret Collins in Cullomane, and it confirms that Margaret's father was Danny Larr, this could be important. Margaret's daughter Dinah is probably the Dinah associated with Roggie and Pitchie whom Aunt Peg remembers when she was just seven years old, and she visited Cullomane East when Denny Dan Larr was ill.

In the census, there is also a son Denis in 1901 who apparently morphed to "Bob" in 1911. Grandmom's brother Denis was also nicknamed Bob, which may be further evidence that these Cullomane families were related.

The Larrys chart is here, and the pdf is here.

Hurleys of Coolnagarrane, part 2

2010-10-27T12:33:00.000-07:00

I wasn't planning to turn my attention back to the Hurleys for a while, but this has landed in my lap and I have to take what comes. If you are interested in Hurleys from Coolnagarrane, you can read part 1 here.

My Hurley family tree can be found here.   John Hurley, son of Michael Hurley and Bridget Cahalane (married 25-May-1838, Leap, Kilmacabea), had three brothers we know about. John (b. 1839) is the oldest. Patrick (b. 1841) is somewhat questionable, only because the mother's surname shows up as Coughlan, not Cahalane (maybe a recording error by a priest who was hard of hearing). Then Daniel (b. 1843) and finally Michael (b. 1849). Notice the gap - maybe the famine had something to do with it?!?

It is Daniel that I am looking at. There were descendants of Daniel Hurleys in Coolnagarrane early in the 20th century, according to the Southern Star archives. Sorting them out is a work in progress. In part 1 I said the Hurleys were a lonely bunch but by the early 20th century there were enough of them to be confusing!

A Daniel Hurley married Honora McCarthy, probably early 1852 or before, and had Ellen bap 17-Dec-1852; Catherine bap 29-Apr-1855; Honora bap 13-Sep-1857; Daniel bap 3-Jun-1860; and John bap 6-Mar-1864. (Thankfully, these records are all online.) My Hurley family had names Ellen, John, and Catherine so the two families do look confusingly similar.

I think this son Daniel married Julia McCarthy 22-Apr-1894 (witnesses John Hurley and Hanoria McCarthy) in the R.C. Chapel of Drimoleague. The age recorded for Daniel was 28, when it should have been 34. The marriage record says his father's name was Daniel (dead).

Ordinarily I would have thought that there were two different Daniels (one age 28, one age 34), but the 1901 census shows Daniel age 40 in Coolnagarrane, along with wife Julia and children, and they show up again in 1911. So the census corrects the age.

Julia, from Drominidy according to the marriage record, died in 1917 and was a McCarthy-Sowney according to the Southern Star news of 3-Feb-1917.   Her husband Daniel was already deceased.

If Daniel the younger was born 1860, then who was Daniel his father? Daniel Senior was likely not gg-grandfather John Hurley's younger brother (b. 1843), he would have been an incredibly young father, not impossible but improbable. Perhaps Daniel Senior was a cousin of John's, his father Michael's nephew?

To add to the mystery, there is an older Daniel Hurley in the 1901 census with wife Nellie. If the census age is correct his birth year would have been around 1832. They don't show up in the 1911 census - at least where I looked, in Coolnagarrane - so presumably they were both deceased. In the 1901 census is a daughter Mary Ellen, age 28. She's all I have to go on so at some point I will look for her birth record (circa 1873), which I should be able to do at the Los Angeles FHL. Maybe from there I'll be able to approximate when her parents married.   I was thinking this Daniel was gg-grandfather John's uncle - a brother of ggg-grandfather Michael. But if the 1894 marriage record is correct, this older Daniel cannot be the father of Daniel who married Julia. So how are these people all related?

Julia McCarthy may be worth my pursuit too, as she could be distantly related through my Granddad's McCarthy-Sowney lines.

This is why you must verify online information

2010-10-12T08:26:00.000-07:00

I've been researching the family tree descended from one Lawrence Collins of Adrigole (b. 1783, d. 1867), and have been chasing Larry Collinses all over Ireland and even a few who emigrated to the US. In the process, I discovered a Lawrence Collins b. 1878 to a Jeremiah Collins and a Mary Donovan. So I decided to investigate.

I started in the church records, and from there turned up the following:

John,Burgatia,13-Nov-1859,Rosscarbery
Cornelius, ,8-May-1861,Rosscarbery
Patrick,Ross,4-Feb-1863,Rosscarbery
Michael,Barrack Lane,28-Sep-1864,Rosscarbery
Margt,Ross,9-May-1866,Rosscarbery
Jerry,Burgatia,10-May-1868,Rosscarbery
Jas,Burgatia,22-Apr-1870,Rosscarbery
Maurice,,9-Jun-1874,Cork South Parish

I quickly poked around in the online censuses, and in the BMD index at Family search, and found the following:

1901, in Ballynidon, Kinsale Rural DED
Jeremiah Collins, age 68, HoH
Mary Collins, 62, wife
Patrick, brother, 66
Denis, son, 34
Julia, daughter, 30
Jeremiah, son, 26
Lizzie, daughter, 21
Mary Mehigan, granddaughter, 8

In 1911 Jeremiah HoH was deceased and the family was headed by son Denis.

Patrick in Rosscarbery (from the baptismals, above) *may* have ended up in house 28, Burgatia, Rosscarbery DED.

Name     Michael Collins
Gender     Male
Birth Date     27 Sep 1864
Birthplace     0082,ROSS CARBERY,CORK,IRELAND
Father's Name     Jeremiah Collins
Mother's Name     Mary Donovan

So far I have found three references on volume 20 for Clonakilty. This looks like it might be on volume 15.

Name     Margaret Collins
Gender     Female
Birth Date     08 May 1866
Birthplace     0079,ROSS CARBERY,CORK,IRELAND
Father's Name     Jeremiah Collins
Mother's Name     Mary Donovan

I found one reference on volume 10 for Clonakilty.

Name     Jeremiah Collins
Gender     Male
Birth Date     09 May 1868
Birthplace     Cork, Ireland
Father's Name     Jeremiah Collins
Mother's Name     Mary Donovan
Reference Number     v 10 p 113

That one is pretty straightforward.

Name: James
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Place: 118, ROSSCARBERY, CORK, IRE
Birth Date: 20 Apr 1870
Birthplace: Rosscarbery, Cork, Ire
Father's Name: Jeremiah Collins
Mother's Name: Mary Donovan

Very obscure reference number, and multiple entries in the BMD index in the CLONAKILTY district.

Name     Ellen Collins
Gender     Female
Birth Date     25 May 1871
Birthplace     Cork, Ireland
Father's Name     Jeremiah Collins
Mother's Name     Mary Donovan
Reference Number     v 10 p 487

Straightforward, hopefully. She was registered in the KINSALE district.

Name     Mary Collins
Gender     Female
Birth Date     03 Jun 1872
Birthplace     , , IRELAND
Father's Name     Jeremiah Collins
Mother's Name     Mary Donovan

She was registered in the CORK district. Not sure if volume 10-1 or 10-2, but on page 208.

Maurice Collins - CORK
Gender     Male
Birth Date     06 Jun 1874
Birthplace     Cork, Cork, Ireland
Father's Name     Jeremiah Collins
Mother's Name     Mary Donovan
Reference Number     v 10-1 p 208

Straightforward, hopefully. He was registered in the CORK district.

Honora Collins
Gender     Female
Birth Date     11 Jun 1875
Birthplace     Cork, Ireland
Father's Name     Jeremiah Collins
Mother's Name     Mary Donovan
Reference Number     v 10-2 p 478

Straightforward, hopefully. She was registered in the KINSALE district.

Laurence Collins
Gender     Male
Birth Date     06 Jan 1878
Birthplace     Cork, Ireland
Father's Name     Jeremiah Collins
Mother's Name     Mary Donovan Collins
Reference Number     v 5 p 415

Straightforward. He was registered in the KINSALE district, and (sadly) died later that year.

From all of this very hasty preliminary research, I believe that there were at least three different families in County Cork with parents of Jeremiah Collins and Mary Donovan in the research period from the 1850's and beyond. Family #1 appeared to be based in the Rosscarbery area. Their events would have been registered in Clonakilty. Family #2 was in the Cork area. Their events were registered in Cork. Family #3, the one where 1878 Lawrence was from, would have registered their events in Kinsale.

All too often, I've seen family trees out on the Internet that might have thrown all three groups of children into the same family. Without checking up on each of these references, I would end up attaching people to the family tree who weren't my people! As it stands, I have no idea if the Kinsale family is related. That's for further research in the years ahead.

Roggie and Pitchie of Cullomane East

2010-10-03T16:33:00.000-07:00

My 87 year old aunt has an amazing memory. Even though no family history has been written down until now, she has been able to tell me about her maternal granddad and his siblings.

Auntie was born in 1923, and she remembers when Denny Dan Larr Collins died in Cullomane East in late 1930. She remembers her mother taking her and brother Humpsey (Humphrey) by horse and cart to Cullomane, and how the river was swollen, and how her mother drove the horse right into the swollen river and how terrified she was seeing the water rise up around the cart.

The visit was certainly burned into her memory. She remembers two children nicknamed "Roggie" and "Pitchie" (that's my best shot at spelling) that were somehow associated with somebody named Dinah. She can't remember Pitchie very well, but she remembers Roggie a curly haired boy and red-haired.

Grandmom's side of the family had many flaxen-haired and red-haired people in it, indeed, Grandmom's hair was a shade of golden red. I reminded her that Denny Dan Larr had an older sister named Diana, and Auntie thinks that could be the association. There certainly isn't anything conclusive about the Diana Collins, age 20, on the shiplist for "Manhattan", 10-Sep-1873, from Queenstown-Liverpool to NY, except that she was from Ireland. If Roggie and Pitchie were related to Denny Dan Larr's sister and they were children in 1930, they would have had at least been her grandchildren.

This is something no genealogist would know, and the local papers don't print this kind of information. Only some older people locally residing in the area would know. So if the nicknames Roggie and Pitchie are familiar to you and you remember those children living in or visiting Cullomane East, please let me know! Better yet, Roggie or Pitchie, if you are out there, please get in touch!

Caheragh, Drinagh, and Dromdaleague Tithe Applotment Transcriptions Online

2010-10-02T00:19:00.000-07:00

They have not been completely proofread by a local expert yet, but there are transcriptions of the Tithe Applotments for the civil parishes of Caheragh, Drinagh and Dromdaleague available. Refer to this page.

There is work in progress on transcriptions for other parishes, though it may take me a few months to publish them. First I want to coordinate with my proofreader and hope I don't overload him. Second, I will be heading to Salt Lake City for vacation/genealogical research in mid-October to continue research on my own family, to get familiar with other genealogy resources, and to continue developing resources for my own County Cork pages, the tithe transcriptions being part of that effort. Third, I have been taking a much-needed break from driving the 70 mile round-trip to the nearest open Family History Center, and am waiting for the grand reopening of the Los Angeles FHL, which is supposed to happen in late October/early November.

The family tree of General Michael Collins (1890-1922)

2010-09-23T14:01:00.000-07:00

No, I am not going to publish it here, but I often see questions about it out on genealogy forums so I will post on how to obtain a copy of it, as it is copyrighted material.

You can send a message to copy-orders at nli.ie (replace at with a @) and inquire about the family tree compiled by Michael Collins-Powell. It is document #40,430/17. There is a small fee for copying and sending it back to you by regular mail.

Members of my family have told me we are related, and since everything else they've told me that I've been able to confirm has panned out, I would not expect this to be false. However, no one I've talked to knows how we are related, or even through what line we are related (the wide presumption is through Granddad's patrilineal Collins line) and, given the state of existence of Irish genealogical records, I do not expect to be able to establish a paper trail.

By the way, never take somebody's word for it over the Internet what his, or anybody's family history is. Check on sources yourself.

Miss Marple's guide to genealogy

2010-09-21T21:32:00.000-07:00

One of my favorite Agatha Christie novels was a Miss Marple story called "A Murder is Announced." The second victim of the murderer was killed because she knew something about where the murderer was supposed to be at the moment when the first victim was killed, only the murderer wasn't where she *should* have been. Victim #2 exclaimed to her roommate, "She wasn't THERE!"

Miss Marple asked witnesses, "HOW did she say it? Did she say, 'Well, SHE wasn't there.' or did she say, 'She wasn't THERE!' " In the first place, the stress is on SHE, as if the speaker was enumerating the people who were at the party (the scene of the first murder), saying A was there but B wasn't there but C was there. Whereas in the second case, the stress on THERE suggests the speaker thinks a person was supposed to be in a specific place, and was surprised to find that the person was NOT.

Now what on earth has all this to with family history?

After 17 months of doing genealogical research, I have concluded that good research has as much to do with establishing who your ancestors were NOT as who they were. I have done most of the "easy" research and am now starting to grope in the dark researching ancestral lines my family knows nothing about. One of these lines is Driscoll.

Ellen Driscoll married Michael Collins of Lower Lissane 28-Feb-1854 in the Roman Catholic Parish of Caheragh. So clue #1 is that Ellen was from the Caheragh RC parish area, as the groom typically went to the bride's parish for the wedding. Given the number of Driscolls in the area, that's not much to go on, regrettably.

James Driscoll was a baptismal sponsor of the oldest girl Johanna (1856); Johanna Driscoll sponsored Catherine (1860); Dan Driscoll and Mary Driscoll sponsored John (1862); Margaret Driscoll sponsored Michael (1867); and James sponsored Ellen (1875). So clue #2 is that perhaps Ellen had brothers named James and Daniel, maybe sisters named Margaret, Mary, and Johanna. Knowing that Margaret was often abbreviated to look like Mary, I am also keeping in mind that Margaret and Mary could have been one person.

The oldest girl was named Johanna, and Ellen may have had a sister named Johanna. Could Ellen's mother been named Johanna? That is clue #3. If we stretch the traditional Irish naming pattern a bit further, the second son was named John. Could Ellen's father have been named John?

There is one John Driscoll in the tithe applotment of the civil parish of Caheragh. He was in Coarliss (spelled Corless in the tithe applotment), well within the boundaries of the Roman Catholic Parish. I am filing this piece of information in the back of my brain.

Admittedly these are all thin clues. Although some could exist, I have not seen baptismal records state the relationship of sponsors to the family. And the Irish naming pattern was not law.

There is only ONE solid clue in my records. It is in the 1901 census. Michael Collins and Ellen Driscoll Collins were then 80 and 70 years old respectively, living in Lower Lissane. It so happened that Ellen had a niece Noria Driscoll, age 10, staying with them at the time of the census.

If Noria was a niece, she would have been a daughter of one of Ellen's brothers. Perhaps given the age difference, she was a grand niece. But the important thing is there was another Driscoll body in the household, and it's recorded on paper. (It is a possibility that one of Ellen's sisters or sister's daughters could have married a Driscoll and Noria could have acquired the same surname another way. Even worse, the relationship could have been through a sister of Michael, who could have married a Driscoll. I will keep these possibilities in mind in case my hunt is not successful.)

So the next task became to look for Noria's birth record. That is not as easy as it sounds. My searches for Honora, Nora, or Noria born in 1891 in the FHL PILOT program. turned up Nora b. 1886 in Coronea (father's name Daniel); Norah b. 1888 in Ballingowan in the Whitechurch district of Dungarvan in Co Waterford (father Patrick); Norah b. 1889 Lackarour in Clonakilty (father's name Dan); and Norah b. 1892 in Bantry (father Timothy). None of these sounded right.

I set aside the task of finding Noria for a while, then tried searching PILOT again. Only THEN did I realize that Hanora (with an A) is not indexed to Honora (with an O). So I turned up some additional matches: Hanora b. 1890 in Skeagh (father Patrick); and Hanora b. 1890 in Currabeg (father Michael). These sounded better.

My next task was to match all these birth records to families in the 1901 census and to make sure that all Noras were with their families, in other words, that all Noras were where I EXPECTED THEM TO BE, much like how the second victim in the story I mentioned expected a person to be in a particular place at a particular time.

Present and accounted for in the 1901 census:
Nora, in Coronea, is age 15,
Norah, in Whitechurch, is Norah, age 13,
Norah, in Lackarour, is Hanora, age 11,
Norah, in Bantry, is Nora, age 8,
Hanora, in Skeagh, is Nora, age 11,

But Hanora, Currabeg, wasn't THERE. Just like in the story.
Her sisters are listed, her father Michael was a widower, but Hanora was missing.

By no means does this prove that Noria Driscoll staying in Lower Lissane was the daughter of Michael Driscoll of Currabeg, but this is the ONLY lead I have that makes sense.

Brick Wall in Adrigole

2010-07-08T21:44:00.000-07:00

I have made strides in reconstructing the Larrys from Adrigole. Unfortunately, I have run smack into the proverbial genealogy brick wall due to lack of vital records.

The Larrys "started" with Lawrence Collins, who died in 1867, a widower, with a Jeremiah Collins present at death. From a calculation off his death record, Larr was born around 1783. He was my triple-great-grandfather.

Great-great grandfather Daniel Collins was known as "Danny Larr" - a son of Larr. Danny Larr died in 1894 and from a calculation off his death record was born around 1814. Danny married one Mary Mahony and they were settled in Cullomane East, near Bantry. Danny was there in the Caheragh Tithe Applotment in 1852.

There was a Jeremiah Collins who died in 1903 in Adrigole at the age of 82, a well-known agriculturalist and a long-time member of the Board of Guardians. He was married to Mary Hourihane. Their first son, Lawrence, was baptized 13-Sep-1857. I think Lawrence may have at one time run for the Board of Guardians seat his father once had, but I don't think he won the seat. If I have the relationships worked out correctly, this Lawrence eventually moved to Brade and married Elizabeth Sullivan from Reen in 1904. The marriage record shows two Hourihanes as witnesses. In 1924 Lawrence moved from Brade to Lissard (south of Skibbereen town) and he died in 1929. As for the other children, the first daughter was Catherine, who went on to marry a James Collins from Knockaphreane (down towards Baltimore); they eventually moved to Lick (I think this is Licknavar, just southwest of Skibbereen town). Son Jeremiah married Elizabeth Mary (Lily) Wilson from Corron, Leap 17-Apr-1919. Son Daniel became the Very Reverend Daniel Canon Collins, who spent time in Glasgow; he died in 1934. Son John became the Rev John Collins and served as the "estimable curate" of Clonakilty.

From a calculation off of Jeremiah's death notice, I figured he was born about 1821.

Another known Adrigole Collins family is that of John Collins and Catherine Shiely - or Sheahy, or something like that. Their first son was also Lawrence, baptized 4-Jun-1854. John died in 1886, Catherine died in 1905. Unfortunately, things get very confusing in Catherine's funeral write-up in the Southern Star. It says her brother-in-law Jeremiah of Adrigole was one of the mourners. Jeremiah died 2 years earlier, so a Jeremiah there could have been her son or her nephew by marriage. And it says another brother-in-law mourner was Lawrence in Brade. This would have been her nephew by marriage - Jeremiah's son.

From a calculation off of John's death record, I figured he was born about 1818.

Lawrence son of John had a baptismal sponsor Lawrence Collins. I don't have a further clue as to the baptismal sponsor's identity - though I am aware of a Lawrence Collins
of Ballyriree, Kilmacabea parish who married Mary Hayes in 1866 when he was 26 (Ballyriree Lawrence's father was named John).

Assuming that my family is correct about great-great-grandfather Daniel "Danny Larr" Collins being a son of Larr, I thought there was a good chance John and Jeremiah were also sons of Larr, and asked Skibbereen Heritage to do a search. I thought Danny Larr would have been too old to be in the baptismals, but surely John and Jeremiah would be there.

Nothing.

Skibbereen Heritage couldn't find any Collinses in Adrigole around those dates, though Larr is clearly in the 1825 Castlehaven Tithe Applotment with a "Jerry."

Even if the years had been slightly off I would have expected to at at least found the youngest - Jeremiah, in the baptismals. My conclusion for now is that the Larrys were transplants from elsewhere. And to find out more about the Larrys, I will probably need access to some rather unconventional historical records, such as Board of Guardian meeting notes.

I am starting to wonder about Rosscarbery as their origin, as I've seen Collinses named Jeremiah and Lawrence out of there. Lawrence Collins and Mary Hayes may have moved to Rosscarbery. There was a Rosscarbery Jeremiah Collins married to Mary Donovan, and they had a son Lawrence in 1878.

The Larrys were terrific agriculturalists (Grandmom was an amazing grower and so was Uncle Denis when he was actively doing so), so the Rosscarbery Agricultural Society and annual fair immediately come to mind. Therefore, to successfully dig deeper back into this family, I may eventually have to dig up old Society notes to see if the Larrys were involved.

The Hurleys of Coolnagrane

2010-06-12T16:34:00.000-07:00

My ancestral Hurleys of Coolnagrane were a rather quiet mysterious and lonely bunch. Unlike the legal scrapes and brawls that my Collinses may have found themselves in, there isn't anything like that about the Hurleys in the Southern Star archives (one was victimized by the theft of a good suit, but that's a long story). The descendants of one Daniel Hurley got most of the press, with the girls winning butter-churning contests! I call the Coolnagrane Hurleys "lonely" because they were not surrounded by lots and lots of Hurleys, unlike my Collins and McCarthy ancestors in Lissane.

The Abbeystrowry Tithe Applotment (1835), which was incredibly faded and practically impossible to read, indicated only a John Hurley in Coolnagrane. There was a Daniel Hurley indicated in what I think is Kilnaclasha (too faded to read the townland name). Those were the only two Hurleys I could scrape out of Abbeystrowry. There are more Hurleys in Castlehaven, Caheragh, and other surrounding civil parishes.

In trying to find a death record for my great-great grandfather John Hurley, I had to get a copy of a death record for just about every man named John Hurley in Skibbereen, from 1880 on, but I finally found it. (1880 was the year John's youngest child Annie Hurley was born.) I was fooled by the 1901 census, as he is not on the household record, but his wife Margaret did say she was married, not widowed. John died 1-Apr-1908, age 70, four years to the day exactly before his daughter Ellen died. Son John was present at death.

From the death record I was able to estimate the birth year (1838) and have Skibbereen Heritage dig up John Hurley's family, since we knew about his father Michael. John was baptized 23-Feb-1839. His mother was Bridget Cahalane. Skibb Heritage said the Hurley residence was not noted on the records (only Skibbereen & Rath RC parish), and they were unable to find a marriage record.

It looks like John had three younger brothers:

Patrick, bap. 2-Mar-1841
Daniel, 31-May-1843
Michael, 15-Jan-1849

Those winning the butter-churning contests were possibly descended from Daniel. I am not sure, because I find two Daniel Hurleys in the 1901 census, one age 40 and one age 69. I think the older one (the dairy man) is John Hurley's brother. Since he was a dairy man, his descendants were probably the prize-winning butter-churners. I don't know whose son the younger Daniel is.

I hold a slight question mark over Patrick only because the record says Coughlan, not Cahalane. These are two distinct names with different origins. But from having stared at many hundreds of illegibly written records I wouldn't be surprised if there were a transcription error picked up on the way. And, Bridget apparently went by Biddy.

The Coolnagrane John Hurley in the 1835 Tithe Applotment is an unknown, speculatively the next Hurley up the patrilineal line from Michael (the Michael married to Bridget Cahalane). Perhaps Daniel of Kilnaclasha? was John's brother. I can only theorize.

Griffiths only shows Michael Hurley in Coolnagrane.

My Hurley chart is updated: Hurleys of Coolnagrane

My quick scan of the BMD index available from the LDS library only turns up one Bridget Hurley death record of interest. She sounds too old to be Bridget Cahalane - she would have been about 46 when John was born!. But the estimated age at death could be wrong so I will give that one record a shot just to eliminate it as a possibility.

Of course the question remaining, which may not be possible to answer is, where did this little cluster of Coolnagrane Hurleys come from?

Grandmom's uncle Daniel Collins, 21-Sep-1865, of Cullomane

2010-06-06T17:57:00.000-07:00

Denny Dan Larr's youngest brother was Daniel Collins, whose birth was registered around 21-Sep-1865 in Cullomane. Thanks to Aunt Peg I finally know what happened to him.

The whole topic came up when we were discussing my 2009 trip to Ireland. I had sent some photos of Kenmare to my cousin, and Aunt Peg said on the phone one day, "Did you know we have cousins down in Kenmare?" When my ears perked up she laughed.

When she was about 17, Peg went down to Kenmare and met a cousin named Laurence, who was about 10 years older. He had a brother named Denis. Laurence had a chemist's shop (a pharmacy) and Denis was a schoolteacher. Aunt Peg also said something about a policeman.

It turns out there aren't that many Collinses in Kenmare, and my initial online search turned up a Daniel and a Denis born in the 1870's, plus a Laurence born in 1913.

From Laurence's birth record I learned that Daniel Collins was his father and Elizabeth Lavery was his mother. Daniel was listed as an ex-R.I.C. Constable. I did some further searching at the LDS Family Search but have not yet turned up another child named Denis. The family residence was listed as Direen. There is a Direen on the Ring of Kerry.

I searched the 1911 census online - nothing.

At the church record website Irish Genealogy, I did turn up evidence of an older child named Mary Ellen, born 1906.

I tried again to search the 1911 census for Daniel, Elizabeth, or Mary Ellen Collins. Nothing.

I was starting to think that the family lived in some special kind of construction that was tallied on certain forms that did not get digitized for the census online. Or that they lived in England. I searched some UK census databases, but could not find anything that really matched.

I tried to match Elizabeth Laverys to Daniel Collinses in the PILOT at Family Search, in the hopes of coming up with a marriage record. No luck.

The name Lavery is very rare in Southern Ireland, and is far more frequently found in the northern counties or even Dublin. I was starting to think that Daniel married Elizabeth up there, and that their marriage record was buried in the church records up north.

In the meantime, I finally obtained the death record of Daniel and Denny Dan Larr's father, Danny Larr. Danny Larr died 14-Jul-1894 in Cullomane.

Daniel, the son, was the informant. For informant residence, there is a somewhat illegible scrawl followed by "Co Kerry."

A post to Co Kerry Roots Chat soon attracted someone who was able to identify the place as Templenoe, a civil parish in Kerry. He provided a link about Templenoe at Genuki. This very informative page says that Templenoe was segmented between the district electoral divisions of Dromore, Greenane, Kenmare, Reen, and Loughbrin.

I tried the 1911 census again. In Greenane, there is a placename called Derreenfinlehid. Well, that starts with Derreen, which sounds like Direen. Geographically, it is close to Sneem, which is rather far away from the other Direen I had spotted earlier.

In Derreenfinlehid, there is a Domhnall Ó Coileáin. The household census return is in Gaelic. His wife is Eilís ní Choileáin, and his daughter is Máire Eibhlín. There is another son called Domhnall Sheosaiph.

On the form, which was filled out in Gaelic, somebody had handwritten "pensioner" for Domhnall's occupation and "schoolmaster" for Eilís's occupation.

Never would I have imagined that their census return was in Gaelic!!!

The 1911 census says that Daniel and Elizabeth were married nine years. That would put the marriage date around 1902. Still no luck finding the marriage record.

I did find Lizzie Lavery in the same place in the 1901 census. She and her sister were teachers. Elizabeth was born in Sneem in 1870 and the Lavery parents were also teachers.

Why can't I find the marriage record of Daniel and Elizabeth at Family Search? And when and where was their son Denis born? Or is Daniel Joseph really Denis?

And who were Daniel and Denis in the 1870's, born to John Collins and Mary Houlihan? Are they somehow related?

Progress

2010-05-19T22:10:00.000-07:00

Wow, it's been ages since I've written!

I've been spending my time looking at birth films, year by year, casting the net looking for potential ancestors. I've also been looking at 1901 census films and at Tithe Applotment films.

I have obtained a few books on Irish names and I've learned that the name Owen, to my surprise, is interchangeable with Eugene. That explains why, in the Hourihane records Margaret at Skibbereen Heritage sent me, Owen is listed as Eugene. I also learned that Marty, Murty, and Morty have all been used for Mortimer.

MCCARTHY

I found an article in the Ireland news archives about Daniel McCarthy, the schoolteacher whom Aunt Peg remembers. The article did not give the names of the member of his nuclear family, but it mentioned his first marriage. His first wife's name was Margaret Fitzgerald, and they married in 1888.

I figured from that piece of information I would get Daniel's father's name and the townland he lived in before he got married. So I sent away to the GRO for a copy of that record.

The 1911 census shows his elderly mother living with the family - his mother's name was Kate.

The marriage record said that he was 25 at the time of the marriage and that his father's name was Cornelius. His residence was Curraghalicky in Drinagh.

In my research notes from film-scanning I found a Catherine McCarthy born in 1865 in Curraghalicky to a Cornelius McCarthy and a Catherine Burke. What luck that I found a sibling born late enough to get recorded in the general registration! Now I had the surname of the mother.

In addition, the marriage record showed a Michael McCarthy as a witness. I figured that might be a possible brother.

Armed with all that information, I contacted Skibbereen Heritage. Margaret immediately found the family, in neigboring Garryglass. She was unable to find a marriage record, so where Catherine Burke was from is a mystery, as it assumed that Cornelius went to Catherine Burke's Roman Catholic parish to get married.

I may have to resort to more letter-writing to Daniel's descendants, to see if anybody knows anything about his parents, particularly his father's family. We think that Daniel's father was possibly a brother of Mary McCarthy, Granddad's grandmother. I am in the process right now of looking for the death records of Mary and Cornelius. From those records I will get their estimated age and therefore the approximate years they were born. But it would be nice to know a little more before venturing into another search.

HOURIHANE

I was contacted by somebody who is probably a distant Hourihane cousin, named Pat. Pat's great-grandfather was named Mortimer Howard, and there is reason to believe that Irish emigrants often changed the name from Hourihane to Howard upon arrival here. This Mortimer Howard emigrated during the famine, in the late 1840's. Pat also mentioned that there was a brother named Eugene. Because of the similar family names, Pat thinks that his great-grandfather is somehow connected to the Hourihanes of Clohane, and I think it is true.

Unfortunately, there are huge gaps in the records and therefore in our knowledge. We don't know the details about the families of the Hourihanes listed in Clohane in the Caheragh Tithe Applotment, which was taken in 1827. We only see the names of the men who were farming. And unfortunately, Griffiths Valuation just adds to the confusion. People started getting creative with the spelling so Hourihane became Hourahan in the Clohane area. As I keep searching birth, death, and marriage films, perhaps something will illuminate this family.

THE LARRYS

I had to split my Larrys folder into two folders - one for Collins out of Colomane East, and one for Collins out of Adrigool, in Castlehaven.

Colomane East

Aunt Peg mentioned on the phone one day that "we have cousins down in Kenmare." They are Collinses out of Colomane East. There aren't many people named Collins in County Kerry when compared to Cork, and in Kenmare the name is rare. Somebody named Laurence Collins is about as rare as Haley's Comet, so I was easily able to find the birth record of somebody named Laurence, born in 1913. Aunt Peg said something about a policeman. Laurence's father, Daniel, was an ex- R.I.C. (Royal Irish Constabulary) constable. The mother's name was Elizabeth Lavery, which is not nearly as common a name in the Irish Republic as it is in Northern Ireland.

I searched and searched but was unable to turn up anything in the 1911 census for Daniel and Elizabeth. I don't know if he had already left the R.I.C. and if not, what sort of living arrangements that constables had. I did find a baptismal record of Laurence's sister Mary Ellen in 1906, on a website called Irish Genealogy, but I was unable to locate a marriage record for Elizabeth and Daniel. It is strange how Daniel and Elizabeth stayed off the radar.

Who is this Daniel? Is he Great-granddad Denis's youngest brother, born in 1865? Or is he the son of another brother? How are Laurence and Daniel related to Grandmom?

Adrigool

I am trying to figure out the Collins families from the 1900's and work backwards from there. I continue to follow the trails of Larrys. The death record of Laurence Collins, who died in 1867, shows a Jeremiah Collins present at death. This is probably a son. A Jeremiah Collins of Adrigool died in 1903, age 82. Unfortunately, that does not neatly match the Jerry Collins I found farming with Laurence in Adrigool in the Castlehaven Tithe Applotment, taken about 1828. Either the newspaper obituary underestimated the age, or there is another Jeremiah Collins wedged in there.

The Tithe Applotment also shows a William Collins and a Daniel Collins. Grandmom's Granddad Daniel is "Danny Larr", son of Larry Collins. Again, the ages don't match. Could there have been another generation wedged in between Daniel and Laurence, maybe another Daniel, who would have been Danny Larr? I think it is odd that Great-Granddad Denis did not have a brother named Laurence, at least, not one that I am aware of! I have been going through scads of Daniel Collins records and so far I have been unable to turn up anything about any Daniel Collins in our family! Who was Daniel in this Tithe Applotment and when did the Daniel who was Grandmom's granddad go to Colomane East?

There was a John Collins married to a Catherine Shiely. They had three children I know about, including John J, born in 1871. I think John J. Collins shows up later in the newspapers, and he purchased land in Smorane. Was he somehow related?!?

In 1866, 26 year old Laurence Collins of Ballyriree (just northeast of Adrigool) married 24 year old Mary Hayes. His father was John Collins. Was this John Collins from Adrigool? Was Laurence named after his paternal grandfather? From the IGI, it looks like Laurence and Mary moved to the Rosscarbery area and had several children. I have not found one named after the dad.

The Jeremiah Collins I am puzzling over married Mary Hourihane (a different bunch of Hourihanes), and had several children. I *think* they could have had a son Laurence born in 1857 but I am not sure. A Laurence, son of Jeremiah, married Elizabeth Sullivan in 1904. This Laurence was living in Brahed (Brade), Myross at the time of the marriage. But this does not match what I find in news archives. There was a Lawrence Collins in Brade but his wife's name was Mary, they moved to Lissard in 1924, and he died in 1929.

As you can see, there are several jigsaw puzzles to solve.

Drimoleague graveyard Treasure Hunt

2010-04-22T11:29:00.000-07:00

Margaret at the Skibbereen Heritage Centre informed me today that she is trying to get local volunteers to help her identify unknown tombstones in the Drimoleague cemeteries.

She plans to be in Drimoleague Sunday, May 2, 2010 to look at tombstones. If you are in a position to help her I encourage you to participate! If you know people who can help her, please encourage them to do so!

Hourahan, McCarthy, Collins, Tithe Applotment

2010-03-21T00:45:00.000-07:00

I am continuing my strategy of casting my net wide and searching the birth films starting from 1864 in the hopes or piecing together some of the nuclear families of interest in the Lissane and Tooreen areas for Granddad's relatives as well as looking at Adrigole for some of Grandmom's family. To speed things I am limiting my search to the Drimoleague registration sub-district, which will include Granddad's areas, and I want to start looking out towards Dunmanway and look at McCarthys. I'll even start looking for Driscolls in the general Drimoleague area.

MCCARTHY
Aunt Peg provided an excellent lead on McCarthy cousins when she mentioned that Granddad's maternal grandmother Mary McCarthy came from a family of schoolteachers whom she thought were from Drinagh. In the 1901 census I found the household of Daniel McCarthy, schoolteacher, who had many children. Aunt Peg recalled visiting the family when she grew up - it was a major event to go out and see the McCarthys! Bridget McCarthy married Paddy Connolly and they had a B&B in Owenahincha, where Mom and Aunt Peg stayed back in 1971. Eileen McCarthy became Eileen Daly, and I think later in life she was well acquainted with Aunt Eileen.

Unfortunately, I don't know much else about Daniel (Donal) McCarthy's origins, other than to note that his mother Kate is on the 1911 census record. I tried searching the news archives but so far have not found a funeral notice. I have searched half the relevant 1864 birth rolls, and one Daniel McCarthy with a mother Catherine turns up in Dunmanway town, but it says the father was a weaver. If this is supposed to be a family of scholarly professionals, I don't think that's him.

I did find a wonderful 1996 article about a 'Master' McCarthy family reunion in the Southern Star. It gives details about his first wife, her accidental death, and the date of his marriage to his second wife. The daughter from the first marriage is not mentioned, but the eleven children from the second marriage are.

To find out his father's name and where he lived prior to Carrigbaun, I can send away for one of his marriage records, or I can contact one of his descendants (or both). The article says he died August 8, 1945 at the age of 82, which would put his birth year as 1863, so if this is accurate then I won't find him on LDS birth film. But if he had younger siblings, I would eventually find them.

HOURIHANE (HOURAHAN)
Ellen Hurley's mother was Margaret Hourihane, daughter of Owen. According the to 1867 marriage record of Margaret and John Hurley, she was from Clohane Beg. Cousin "Jo" says that Margaret had a brother Patrick Hourihane who married Ellen Daly, also in 1867. The 1901 and 1911 census records show an Ellen Hourihane, widow, with five children in Clohane Beg.

All five children are adult and still living at home in 1911. They were Bridget, Catherine (Kate), Eugene, Marty (or Morty - or Murty?), and Julia. I think this was Patrick Hourihane's family.

Griffith's Valuation from the early 1850's shows Owen Hourahan in Cloghane Beg; another in Cooradowny and another in Coolanuller (all Caheragh parish). Searches matching Owen Hourihan land me in Lurriga (Abbeystrowry), and Oughtohig (Kilcoe), and Baurgorm (Kilmocomoge). There is nobody spelled Hourihane in Caheragh parish. I think the Hourahan in Cloghane Beg is the right one.

If I look for more Hourahans in Cloghane, there is a John Hourahan. There are other Hourahans in the immediately surrounding area.

There are other variant-spelling Hourihanes out toward Bantry, in Trawlebane.

From the Family History Center I had ordered Tithe Applotment Book films. For Caheragh parish the information is dated about 1828.

Looking at the parish of Caheragh, I see there is an entry in Clahane for "Murty Hourihane and sons", and another that says "Murty Hourihane Junior and brothers." In Clahane More there are Owen, Tim, and John Hourihane. No ages are given in the Tithe Applotment books.

I have ordered from GRO a possible death record for Owen Hourahan in 1864; if this isn't it there are others to try.

This death record puts his age at 84 - meaning he would have been born about 1780. Margaret Hourihane Hurley reports her age as 64 in the 1911 census, which would put her birth year around 1847. I have ordered a death record in 1929 for a Margaret Hurley, who is listed as age 88, which would put her birth year around 1841. If this is the correct Owen and this is the correct Margaret, then Owen would have fathered Margaret around the age of 60 - which is certainly not impossible, though not a frequent occurrence. Owen would have been about 48 at the time of this Church of Ireland tithing.

OTHERS IN THE TITHE APPLOTMENT
The Tithe Applotment Book lists "Humphrey and Michael Collins" in Lower Lissane, and then further on down the ledger for another property just Humphrey Collins. Griffith's Valuation from 1852 shows Humphrey and a Michael Collins, whom I am pretty sure is Granddad's paternal grandfather. I think this Humphrey is the one who died in 1872. The Tithe Applotment survey is about 1828, and Granddad's grandfather was born I would estimate 1817-1822 timeframe. So who exactly is this Michael Collins in the Tithe Applotment? Could this be yet another generation further back in the patrilineal line?

The second listing of Humphrey Collins shows up with Florence McCarthy and Callaghan McCarthy.

In what was later Upper Lissane, there are Charles McCarthy, Daniel McCarthy senior and junior, Charles McCarthy senior, James McCarthy, and Charles and Con (Cornelius) McCarthy.

In Tooreen (Thureen) there is a Daniel McCarthy and a Denis McCarthy listed twice.

(Granddad's maternal grandfather Cornelius McCarthy would have been a child at the time of the survey. Given that Granddad's mother's family was in Kilmore for a time, I will eventually have to look at the Tithe Applotment Book film for Drimoleague and look for McCarthys there too.)

Cullomane entries have me confused. There *shouldn't* be a Collins in Grandmom's family there yet, so I am assuming the Denis Collins listed with Denis Donovan is unrelated. But on another separate page for Cullomane East, there is a Dan Collins listed. This cannot be Danny Larr, unless we are mistaken about the Collins line of descent.

In Castlehaven parish under Adrigole, there are a Jerry (maybe Jeremiah) Collins and a Lawrence Collins listed together. There are also listed a John Collins and a Dani Collins. Lawrence is probably "Larr" and Dani is possibly "Danny Larr." Grandmom's paternal grandfather, is another person whom I am having great difficulty placing an age on. It seems to me he ought to have been a child at the time of this tithe, but he may also have sired his family (starting around 1852) at an older age.

mtDNA Full Genomic Sequence results came in - just in time for St. Patrick's Day!

2010-03-19T16:23:00.000-07:00

It took over five months for Family Tree to test my sample to the lab's satisfaction. The test had to be run a number of times.

My Irish direct matrilineal line is H6a1.

HVR1 = 16362C 16482G
HVR2 = 239C 263G 315.1C
CR differences from CRS = 750G 1438G 3915A 4769G 8521G 8860G 9380A 11155T 15326G

Now who out there matches that!

The riches pour in

2010-02-20T14:08:00.000-08:00

So I devoted roughly 50-60 hours reading all those birth films I ordered. In the process, I discovered two siblings of Ellen McCarthy - Catherine and Julia.

At that point I felt like I had enough information for Skibbereen Heritage, and sent Skibb a research request. The first week, Margaret found yet two more girls - Hanora and Mary - in addition to Ellen, Catherine, and Julia. They were in the Roman Catholic parish of Caheragh. She was not able to find Margaret or a parental marriage record.

I asked Aunt Peg about it, and she thought Mary McCarthy the mother was one of the McCarthy "masters" who were schoolteachers, and she thought they were from Drinagh. So I told Margaret "try Drinagh."

A week later Margaret did indeed report that she found Margaret and another sister Bridget in Kilmore, plus a marriage record for Cornelius and Mary. This all happened in the RC Parish of Drimoleague and Drinagh.

So there were seven sisters as far as we know. That certainly fulfills the folklore that there were "many sisters."

McCarthys of Tooreen

In addition, I discovered a McCarthy schoolteacher in the 1911 census living in Carrigbaun. Aunt Peg remembers the family vividly. She has mentioned a cousin Bridget McCarthy, whom she and Mom visited in Owenahincha in 1971. That is Daniel's youngest child in the 1911 census. There is also another child Agnes, though she does not appear in either the 1911 or 1901 census. The child Ellen was known as Eileen, married as Daly, and later in life was friends with Aunt Eileen.

In addition, cousin "Jo" from the Hurley side who appeared from out of the blue has been filling me in with many Hurley details. I was able to get baptismal records of all the Hurleys from Skibbereen Heritage Centre. I also got the John Hurley - Margaret Hourihane marriage record from GRO.

On looking over the Hurley chart, Aunt Peg recalled a "Mrs. Tomalin" from her childhood who visited the Collins family and left the children a wonderful construction set toy as a gift. Mrs. Tomalin was Grandmom's aunt Mary Hurley.

So ... it really pays to go fishing through the LDS birth films and cast your net wide. You never know just what treasure you will haul in.

Eureka. I found my matrilineal Great Grandmother.

2010-01-11T18:52:00.000-08:00

While I was waiting for a huge order of films to come in, I rethought how I was approaching my research.

Over the Christmas break, I realized that when I had a birth, marriage, or death film, it was far better to focus the research on that roll of film, rather than a specific person. In other words, go back to the index film for that quarter and year, scan the index, and write down the reference for anybody who might be of interest on the register film. Then look at the register film and write down the details of all the references.

This method works. While I was knocking off lookups of Collinses and McCarthys, I found Ellen Hurley. She was born 6-Jul-1871 in Coolnagarrane (Coolnagrane), exactly where her marriage record said she was from. And her mother's name was Margaret Hourihane. Now how cool is that?!?

Well when I go to the Family History Center I don't normally expect to actually FIND somebody important. On Saturday, I was expecting to spend my day looking over these register films. But instead I immediately went to the 1901 census film, which I fortunately have on hold. I found the household record, and it appears that Ellen's father was already deceased. There were two siblings listed. One was a younger sister Katie. Another was a younger sister. Annie. "Annie" is making a lot of bells clang in my brain, as this could have been Annie Sullivan's mother.

I also ran over to the computer, used the PILOT function on the Family History website, and found the index reference for the marriage of John Hurley and Margaret Hourihane. So I'll be able to find out where Ellen's mother was from. I've already got that marriage information on order. So now I have a new obsession to pursue - Hourihane.

It turns out that one of my Internet genealogy buddies emailed the basic information about this Ellen Hurley to me a few months ago. Only the information was very general for Skibbereen, it didn't say where in Skibbereen these Hurleys were. My buddy also found a few other siblings. So I know much more about the Hurleys now.

I also found the birth record for Ellen McCarthy Maher. She was born 15-Sep-1869 in Tooreen. Her mother was Mary McCarthy McCarthy. I still do not know her relationship to Greatgrandmother Margaret McCarthy Collins. But we are one step closer to finding out.

The real Ellen Hurley ended up being four years older than I was lead to believe from census and death records. Ellen McCarthy Maher ended up being five years older. This just goes to show how difficult it can be to find somebody!

More later...

What not to do

2009-12-08T08:28:00.000-08:00

Up to now, I'd been assuming that Ellen McCarthy was a sister of Granddad's mom Margaret, and they would therefore have the exact same parents. Well, from the looks of their marriage records, it looks like two different Cornelius McCarthys could have been their fathers.

If I had to make a wild guess, I think Ellen's father and Granddad's mom could have been siblings. Margaret McCarthy Collins was born around 1862, which so closely matches Leila McCarthy Mayberry's research.

Aunt Peg said something over the phone about Ellen McCarthy having a sister Margaret, who in turn was the mother of some distant cousin Jack McCarthy. Well if that is true then obviously this Margaret McCarthy could not have been Granddad's mother.

So why did I title this post "What not to do?" Because, when I placed a research request with the GRO, I was still assuming that Greatgrandmother Margaret McCarthy and Ellen McCarthy were sisters, having a mother named Mary (which I have off of census records). So I asked GRO to look for an Ellen McCarthy born between 1870 and 1874 whose father is Cornelius and whose mother is Mary. That was too restrictive, and they came up empty handed.

When I placed the order, I should have paid slightly more money and had GRO send me the images of the Ellen McCarthy births they looked at. I did not, so now I am empty handed and have to revisit all this territory.

I therefore placed the following order for films from LDS:

Ellen McCarthy, Skibbereen, births
101194 1869 v15 p588,597
101199 1869 v20 p578
101204 1870 v5 P725
101209 1870 v10 P742,749,761
101219 1870 v20 p621
255816 1871 v5 p751,772
255824 1871 v10 p762
255831 1871 v15 p575
255838 1871 v20 p603,605
255847 1872 v5 p751,763
255855 1872 v10 p727
255860 1872 v15 p568
255865 1872 v20 p606,621
255866 1872 v20
255873 1873 v5 p699,702
255898 1874 v5 p662
255906 1874 v10 p712,728
255913 1874 v15 p581
255919 1874 v20 p551

This only covers up through part of 1869. There are more Ellen McCarthy births in Skibbereen in 1869 and up through 1868. If If I have to, I'll eventually order those leftovers, but I'll eliminate these first.

Aunt Peg said something about Ellen and her sisters being "close in age", so on the off chance that father Cornelius got married not long before Ellen was born, I want to look at the following marriage records:

Cornelius McCarthy, Skibbereen, marriages
101474 1865 v5 p825,826
No Skibb marriages 1866,1867
101525 1868 v5 p749
101542 1869 v5 p687
101546 1869 v10 p348
101559 1870 v5 p797
1871 no marriages.
1872 no Skibb marriages
1873 - order from GRO

Marriage films only go through 1870, so I will order the 1873 Skibbereen marriage record from GRO.

To strengthen Grandmom's family tree, I went ahead and ordered film for the registry entry of the birth of her youngest paternal uncle, James Collins (Dec-1866):

James Collins, births
101139 1866 v20 p571,573

There is some confusion out on the Internet about this James Collins. Apparently in the International Genealogical Index (IGI) there is a James Collins born around late 1866 to a Denis Collins and Margaret Mahoney in the Drimoleague area. I suspect that "Denis" is really "Daniel" and "Margaret" is really "Mary". The birth record will help clarify this. I already have brother Daniel's record from 1865 and it shows father Daniel and mother Mary.

How am I doing on the Hurley end? I've been asking questions about Grandmom's cousin Annie Sullivan. I turns out her married name was Donovan, and she died around August 2008, not 2007. Aunt Peg was in Ireland that summer and went to her funeral. I checked a website of obituaries called RIP and there is an Annie O'Sullivan O'Donovan from Drinagh listed. That's her.

Now I need to find out who her parents were, specifically her mother. If I know the name of her mother, I will know the name of one of Ellen Hurley's sisters. Arggh!

So the next thing I need to do is order birth records from GRO. I have the following two in mind:

Name: Anne Sullivan
Registration district: Skibbereen
Record type: BIRTHS
Registration date - quarter and year: Jul - Sep 1922
Film number: 101229
Volume: 5
Page: 359

Name: Annie Sullivan
Registration district: Bantry
Record type: BIRTHS
Registration date - quarter and year: Oct - Dec 1923
Film number: 101229
Volume: 5
Page: 21

There is an interesting census record in Coolnagarrane in the 1911 census. It is interesting not only because it is filled out in Irish, even though the occupants of the household spoke "Bearla" (English). But the household name is O'Sullivan, spelled the more traditional way. There was a famous Irish politician named Gearóid O'Sullivan, and he came from Coolnagarrane. He would have been 20 in 1911, and there is definitely a "gap" in the children between the ages of 16 and 22 in this census record. Could Gearóid O'Sullivan have come out of this household?

Aunt Peg said something about Annie being from Coolnagarrane. So could Annie Sullivan have been a daughter of one of these sons, being a niece of Gearóid O'Sullivan?

The nice thing about the film order above, is that the date range 1869-1874 coincides with many of the Ellen Hurley's on my list, so I'll be able to knock off a bunch of Ellen Hurley lookups at the same time:

 Ellen Hurley, births
101219, 1870, v20, p614, Skibbereen
255824, 1871,  v10, p736, Skibbereen
255831, 1871, v15, p567, Skibbereen
255838, 1871, v20, p253, Dunmanway
255855, 1872, v10, p28, Bantry
255860, 1872, v15, p225, Dunmanway
255873, 1873, v5, p280, Dunmanway
255898, 1874, v5, p265, Dunmanway
255913, 1874, v15, p234, Dunmanway
255913, 1874, v15, p579, Skibbereen

Lots of blind alleys

2009-11-27T00:03:00.000-08:00

I have had many conversations with Aunt Peg and it is no surprise that she and her siblings were about as confused as I am about family relationships. The names keep repeating generation after generation. She said the only person who *knew* who everybody was was Granddad.

(Sigh) GRO sent back my Ellen McCarthy request with no matches. Apparently my request for an Ellen McCarthy with a mother named Mary was interpreted as Mary COLLINS, which they could not find. So I'm not sure where to go from here...

GRO did send me the Ellen McCarthy-Patrick Maher 1903 marriage record as well as Ellen Maher's death record. It shows Ellen living in Tooreen at the time of the marriage. The Mahers were not "indigenous" to the area and came from further up north. Patrick Maher, like his father, was a steward, whatever that meant. The marriage record lists Ellen's father Cornelius also as a steward, which has me confused. On the Margaret McCarthy-Humphrey Collins marriage record from 1890, Cornelius McCarthy is a farmer. So... did he change careers? Or are we talking about two different Cornelius McCarthys? Were Ellen and Margaret really sisters? Or were they perhaps cousins? Or was Ellen a niece of Margaret's?

I banged around the 1911 census records again and thought about widow Mary McCarthy in Lissane Upper. I found what I suspect is the corresponding record in 1901, only she was married to a Daniel McCarthy, not Michael. So this is not Greatgranddad Denis's oldest sister Mary, as far as I can tell.

I kept looking around the Bredagh D.E.D. area of the 1911, and stumbled across a Michael and Norah McCarthy in Derryduff. They were married 2 years, had no children. Norah is listed as 34 years old. That would make her birth year about 1877.

Derryduff sounded familiar. So did Nora McCarthy. Sure enough, on Grandmom's and Granddad's marriage record, there is a Nora McCarthy who witnessed the marriage. And the place of residence for both Grandmom and Granddad at the time of the marriage is Derryduv (Derryduff). It has to be the same Nora.

Only there is a new problem. The family folklore states that Grandmom was raised by paternal aunts. I don't know of any aunt named Nora. At least Skibbereen Heritage Centre did not provide me one! So either Greatgranddad Denis had a sibling named Nora I just don't know about, or perhaps she is the daughter of his older brother Jeremiah (AKA "William") or maybe one of Greatgranddad's sisters married a Collins and had Nora.

After hitting the LDS records again, I did find a Nora Collins born in 1878, in Ballintotis, which is just beyond the city of Cork. And her father is ... William Collins.

William did not stay on the farm in Colomane East, which is a mystery as traditionally that's what the oldest sons did. Why did William leave Colomane? Perhaps he came back to the area, as he is a witness in the 1904 marriage of brother Denis to Ellen Hurley. I am driving myself crazy with more questions.

I sent away for the marriage record of Nora Collins and Michael McCarthy. It will say what her father's name was and where she was from.

Along those lines, I sent away for the death record of a Humphrey Collins in 1873. I am wondering if he is Granddad's paternal greatgrandfather.

I've also sent away for Greatgranddad Denis's death certificate. Aunt Peg told me she distinctly remembered traveling by cart to go see him around the time he was dying. She was a little girl, and Mom was an infant or toddler, babysat by Mary Maher. That would put Greatgranddad's date of death around 1929 or 1930. We were under the impression he died much earlier.

Batting Zero today on the research!

2009-10-17T18:46:00.000-07:00

I drove all the way down to the Orange Family History Center. This was my worst day down there, ever!

First of all, my beloved first roll of film from the the 1901 Ireland census in Cork was mistakenly sent back, even after I had put a hold on it. So I have to get it back. (sigh)

I searched the entire second census roll on hold for age-appropriate Ellen McCarthys (nothing - but plenty of McCarthys and plenty of Ellens!). I also took note of a few Hurleys.

That first roll might have my age-appropriate Ellen McCarthy on it, so I have to get it back.

Then the roll I ordered for Kilmocomoge parish is the wrong one. Oh yes, it's got part of Kilmocomoge, but only the parts of the parish that lie in Bantry Rural and Bantry Urban District Electoral Divisions. The catalog does not give you that fine detail (another sigh). So I ordered two more rolls of film with the rest of Kilmocomoge parish on them. I need the Kealkill D.E.D. That's where John Hurley and Catherine Sullivan lived, maybe with their daughter Ellen!

I told the FHC that I would be happy to purchase film for them to just put in the permanent collection. It would spare me the grief of having to keep putting film on long-term hold. I don't know why they don't do that!

When you do this kind of research, you have to keep track of who does NOT match as well as who does. Because otherwise you'll forget if you've chased down a particular record or not. And that gets to be a huge job. Unfortunately I got sloppy keeping track of all the Ellen Hurleys. I need a break. (third sigh)

There is always the alternative of sending an Ellen Hurley research request to GRO. It's something like 4 Euro per lookup and 6 Euro if they make a copy of something in a register. It's far cheaper than spending 40-50 Euro per certificate through one of these online genealogy certificate services. It takes about six weeks, but they'll pound the pavement for you. The alternative is to scour all the LDS birth index rolls, but you have to order those rolls first. That could take weeks. Then you go through those and make a list of entries that match what you are looking for, and then you have to order the actual register film. That takes many more weeks. So GRO really does provide a great service!

McCarthys McCarthys everywhere!

2009-10-17T17:55:00.000-07:00

I have a few notes about McCarthy relatives from cousin Michael and Uncle Denis, plus what cousin Jeanne passed on from Aunt Eileen. So I thought it was about time to start tracking down McCarthys in Granddad's family.

Cousin Michael said that Granddad's mom Margaret "had many sisters" and one "was called Ellen." So that was a start. I had Margaret McCarthy Collins' death record and had an approximate year of birth. In addition, the marriage record of Margaret McCarthy and Humphrey Collins says that her father's name was Cornelius. And I knew from the 1901 and 1911 census records that her mother's name was Mary. So that should be plenty to go on, right?

I started searching the Internet, and lo and behold, there is a lady named Leila descended from a McCarthy family in Lissane, like mine. Father's name was Cornelius. The mother's name was Mary Collins. A daughter Margaret was born 1862, which would have been close to the time Granddad's mom was born. She had a sister Ellen, born 1854. Okay, this sounded extremely promising!

I emailed Margaret at Skibbereen Heritage Centre and asked her to search the baptismals for McCarthys from Lissane. I emailed her information about the family tree I found on the Internet, and concluded with a smiley face and a "This should be easy!"

Famous last words. This all happened before I talked to Aunt Peg.

Aunt Peg said that sister Ellen was Ellen McCarthy Maher. And that her daughter Mary Maher used to babysit my mom when she was an infant. Hmmm.

I searched the 1911 census for Mahers. Sure enough, there is Ellen Maher in Maulbrack, with her husband Patrick and daughter Mary. But something was not quite right. This Ellen was only about 40 in 1911.

She and Patrick got married in 1903. And it looks like she died in 1931.

I panicked when I realized I might have sent Skibbereen Heritage Centre on a wild goose chase. I emailed Margaret as fast as I could - "WAIT! That's not the right Ellen McCarthy!"

I corresponded with Leila, and we swapped information. After looking at her family tree, I concluded that we must somehow be related, but we are somehow off by a generation. The names are so similar and the hometown is the same! But I need an Ellen McCarthy some 15-20 years younger than her Ellen McCarthy to fit my family profile. Our family trees must be tangled up together somehow!

On a good note, Margaret at Skibbereen Heritage Centre found the baptismal records of Humphrey Collins and at least some of his siblings, and also the marriage date of the parents. His father was Michael Collins and his mother was Ellen Driscoll.

Well now, on my USB drive I have a 1901 census record of an elderly Michael and Ellen Collins, with her niece staying with them. The niece is a Driscoll. They live very close by Humphrey and Margaret.

It's amazing, when you get one little piece of information, how so much can fall into place so quickly.

And thank God I have ancestors named Humphrey Collins. It's a rare name in Ireland, but not in my family. Thank you, ancestors, for naming at least a few of your children with rare names so I could track them down on the computer! :) I am drowning in Marys, Margarets, Ellens, Denises, and Daniels. It would be so nice to see an occasional Bridget. Or a Nora. A Sheila. A Bernadette. A Sean. How about some more Patricks? Anything!

In the meantime, I've done some initial lookups on the birth records of all the Ellen McCarthys born in Skibbereen and Dunmanway districts between 1865 and 1875. I've sent a list of 17 references from 1870 to 1874 off to the GRO, with instructions to look them up and send me only those matches with father = Cornelius and mother = Mary. (Sigh.)

Research Updates

2009-10-04T14:30:00.000-07:00

I was able to find a birth record for Grandmom's uncle Daniel Collins for September 21, 1865, which definitively shows that Grandmom's paternal grandmother was Mary Mahoney (not Margaret).

I found the household of Grandmom's dad Denis Collins in Colomane East in the 1901 census. At the time his first wife Kate was still alive. Sister Johanna (Hannah) and mother Mary Mahoney Collins were living with them.

Grandmom's granddad Daniel Collins is definitely in Colomane East in Griffith's Valuation.

I poked around the 1901 census records, but without further information am utterly unable to identify which records are those of relatives. There are five McCarthy households in Upper Lissane and four Collins households in Lower Lissane. I am only certain of Granddad's household in Tooreen.

I got a nice stack of paper back from the Ireland GRO. I now have information about: Ellen Hurley Collins death, Humphrey Michael Collins death, Margaret McCarthy Collins death and that of her daughter, Margaret Collins; and Humphrey Michael Collins and Margaret McCarthy marriage. This last one was super-important because it had the name of Margaret McCarthy's father, which was Cornelius. Also of note is that Humphrey was living in Lower Lissane, while Margaret was living in Upper Lissane. This information has been updated in charts on the Collins website.

I thought that maybe Grandmom's uncle Daniel might have been married in the 1890's, and I tore through the GRO records looking for any marriage record that showed a Daniel Collins groom in which his father was Daniel, Denis, or Lawrence (Laurence). I am certain at this point that Grandmom's granddad was Daniel, but I thought I would look anyway. With a history of names like "Danny Den Larr" I wasn't sure what to expect. What a goose chase. The marriage records don't usually report the ages of the bride and groom, which makes this even more difficult. There is one Daniel, son of Daniel, married in 1892 in Rath, Skibbereen to Kate Sheehan. (Rath is sort of south of Skibbereen town, out on a peninsula.) Another one is married in February 1895 and says he is 28 years old; that would put him at 1867, about 17 months after the real birth date. The bride was Ann Driscoll.

One of the questions on my mind of course, is, what happened to the older brother of Denis Collins, Jeremiah (or William, as he may have gone by)? Why did he not stay on the Colomane East farm, as it was usually the eldest son who did this, and the younger ones left. It looks like he was a witness at the 1904 wedding of Denis and Ellen. I will probably never know why he left Colomane East.

I sent letters to people in Colomane, Colomane East, and Colomane West along with some genealogical documents asking them if they knew anything about Ellen Hurley and Denis Collins. One person actually responded, and thinks the Collins property was sold back as far as 1930. He believes the family moved to Castledonovan, then to Dunmanway, and thinks that people in Dunmanway might be able to help me. So that is still another lead I need to pursue.

I have a news clipping of a court proceeding in which Humphrey Mickey Collins and a "Mrs. Collins" testified. This was after 1906 (when Margaret McCarthy died) and before 1910, when Humphrey Mickey died, so this definitely looks like Granddad's dad. The question is, who was "Mrs. Collins?" It couldn't have been his wife, since she was already dead. I thought perhaps that she was his mother. A solicitor asked her when she was married, and she said something about how it was around the "year of the big snow." The solicitor then said that would be 1854. So I have to think how I am going to go about looking for marriage records from the mid-1850's.

All research is getting much more difficult now. I still have Ellen Hurley to track down. The McCarthys are a research project unto themselves. I thought at one point Uncle Denis said that Granddad had cousins named Maher, which I have not looked into at all.

It's getting to the point where I may have to wait until I have time to spend a few days in Dublin at the National Library so I can search Roman Catholic records.

Still on the hunt for Ellen Hurley

2009-09-13T18:03:00.001-07:00

I am still waiting to hear from Ireland GRO regarding the list of research requests I sent. Nobody has even charged my credit card yet so either they are working on it or my request is still sitting on somebody's desk in Roscommon.

In the meantime, I put together a more comprehensive list of Ellen Hurleys born in the 1870's in Skibbereen, Bantry, and Dunmanway. I won't bother with Skull. My list has 36 entries.

And here I thought Ellen Hurley would be easy - much easier than Grandmom Mary Collins. Was I wrong!

Anyway, here is my list. I am asking some Internet genealogy friends with the Ireland BMD CD that LDS no longer sells to look some or all of these up, and let me know which Ellens have a father named John. If they can't or won't do it, this will be the next list I send to Ireland GRO, after I get something back from the first list I sent.


ELLEN HURLEY/HURLY BIRTHS 1870's

1) Skibbereen, - quarter and year: 1870
INDEX Film #: 101047, Volume: 20, Page: 614, 
REGISTRY Film #: 0101219

2) Skibbereen, - quarter and year: 1871
INDEX Film #: 101048, Volume: 10, Page: 736, 
REGISTRY Film #: 0255824

3) Skibbereen, - quarter and year: 1871
INDEX Film #: 101048, Volume: 15, Page: 567, 
REGISTRY Film #: 0255831

4) Dunmanway, - quarter and year: 1871
INDEX Film #: 101048, Volume: 20, Page: 253, 
REGISTRY Film #: 0255838

5) Dunmanway, - quarter and year: 1872 
INDEX Film #: 101049, Volume: 5, Page: 290, 
REGISTRY Film #: 0255847

6) Bantry, - quarter and year: 1872
INDEX Film #: 101049, Volume: 10, Page: 28, 
REGISTRY Film #: 0255855

7) Dunmanway, - quarter and year: 1872 
INDEX Film #: 101049, Volume: 15, Page: 225, 
REGISTRY Film #: 0255860

8) Dunmanway, - quarter and year: 1873
INDEX Film #: 101050, Volume: 5, Page: 280, 
REGISTRY Film #: 0255873

9) Dunmanway, - quarter and year: 1873
INDEX Film #: 101050, Volume: 10, Page: 306, 
REGISTRY Film #: 0255882

10) Bantry, - quarter and year: 1873
INDEX Film #: 101050, Volume: 15, Page: 32, 
REGISTRY Film #: 0255887

11) Skibbereen, - quarter and year: 1873
INDEX Film #: 101050, Volume: 20, Page: 566, 
REGISTRY Film #: 0255892

12) Dunmanway, - quarter and year: 1874
INDEX Film #: 101051, Volume: 5, Page: 265, 
REGISTRY Film #: 0255898

13) Dunmanway, - quarter and year: 1874
INDEX Film #: 101051, Volume: 15, Page: 234, 
REGISTRY Film #: 0255913

14) Skibbereen, - quarter and year: 1874
INDEX Film #: 101051, Volume: 15, Page: 579, 
REGISTRY Film #: 0255913

15) Dunmanway, - quarter and year: 1875
INDEX Film #: 101052, Volume: 5, Page: 257, 
REGISTRY Film #: 0255926

16) Bantry, - quarter and year: 1875
INDEX Film #: 101052, Volume: 20, Page: 28, 
REGISTRY Film #: 0255943

17) Bantry, - quarter and year: 1875
*** ALREADY HAVE ***
FATHER = JOHN HURLEY, 
MOTHER = CATHERINE SULLIVAN, 
LOCATION = LISHEEN, GLENGARRIFF
INDEX Film #: 101052, Volume: 10, Page: 39, 
REGISTRY Film #: 0255933

18) Skibbereen, - quarter and year: 1875
*** ALREADY SAW ***
FATHER = DANIEL HURLEY, 
MOTHER = MARY SULLIVAN, 
LOCATION = COOM__?, DRINAGH
INDEX Film #: 101052, Volume: 10, Page: 717, 
REGISTRY Film #: 0255933

19) Skibbereen, - quarter and year: 1875
*** ALREADY SAW ***
FATHER = PATRICK HURLEY, 
MOTHER = CATHERINE NEIL
INDEX Film #: 101052, Volume: 15, Page: 613, 
REGISTRY Film #: 0255938

20) Skibbereen, - quarter and year: 1875
*** ALREADY HAVE ***
FATHER = JOHN HURLEY, 
MOTHER = ELLEN DONOVAN, 
LOCATION = DERRYLUGGA, ABBYSTROWRY
INDEX Film #: 101052, Volume: 20, Page: 550, 
REGISTRY Film #: 0255943

21) Dunmanway, - quarter and year: 1876
INDEX Film #: 101053, Volume: 5, Page: 265, 
REGISTRY Film #: 0255950

22) Skibbereen, - quarter and year: 1876
INDEX Film #: 101053, Volume: 5, Page: 623, 
REGISTRY Film #: 0255950

23) Skibbereen, - quarter and year: 1876
INDEX Film #: 101053, Volume: 5, Page: 666, 
REGISTRY Film #: 0255950

24) Dunmanway, - quarter and year: 1876
INDEX Film #: 101053, Volume: 15, Page: 238, 
REGISTRY Film #: 0255961

25) Dunmanway, - quarter and year: 1877
INDEX Film #: 101054, Volume: 10, Page: 282, 
REGISTRY Film #: 0255985

26) Dunmanway, - quarter and year: 1877
INDEX Film #: 101054, Volume: 20, Page: 244, 
REGISTRY Film #: 0255996

27) Bantry, - quarter and year: Jan - Mar 1878
INDEX Film #: 101055, Volume: 5, Page: 36, 
REGISTRY Film #: 0256001

28) Bantry, quarter and year: Jan - Mar 1878
INDEX Film #: 101589, Volume: 5, Page:  22, 
not sure about this reference

29) Bantry, - quarter and year: 1878
INDEX Film #: 101050, Volume: 10, Page: 30, 
REGISTRY Film #: ?

30) Dunmanway, - quarter and year: Apr - Jun 1878
INDEX Film #: 101055, Volume: 5, Page: 271, 
REGISTRY Film #: 0256007

31) Skibbereen, - quarter and year: Apr - Jun 1878
INDEX Film #: 101055, Volume: 5, Page: 681, 
REGISTRY Film #: 0256007

32) Bantry, - quarter and year: Jul - Sep 1878
INDEX Film #: 101055, Volume: 5, Page: 22, 
REGISTRY Film #: 0256013

33) Dunmanway, - quarter and year: Jul - Sep 1878
INDEX Film #: 101055, Volume: 5, Page: 244, 
REGISTRY Film #: 0256013

34) Skibbereen, - quarter and year: Jan - Mar 1879
INDEX Film #: 101056, Volume: 5, Page: 658, 
REGISTRY Film #: 0256025

35) Dunmanway, - quarter and year: Jan - Mar 1879
INDEX Film #: 101056, Volume: 5, Page: 266, 
REGISTRY Film #: 0256025

36) Dunmanway, - quarter and year: Apr - Jun 1879
INDEX Film #: 101056, Volume: 5, Page: 285, 
REGISTRY Film #: 0256031

Research Updates

2009-08-29T19:55:00.000-07:00

I have the following requests in with GRO Ireland:

Photocopies of the following births:

-- Mary COLLINS Colomane, 18-Jun-1906 (Grandmom)
-- Ellen HURLEY Drimoleague?, 25-Feb-1876 (father John Hurley, mother Kate Walsh)

Lookups and photocopies of the following marriages, if found:

Humphrey COLLINS + Margaret MCCARTHY, Apr-Jun 1890, Skibbereen
John HURLEY + Ellen DONOVAN, 1871, Skibbereen
Denis COLLINS + Mary MAHONEY, 1852, Tipperary
Denis COLLINS + Mary MAHONEY, 1851, Rathkeale or Waterford

Lookups and photocopies of several marriages in which one party is Daniel Collins, which I won't bother listing here. I asked for copies only in which his father is Daniel, Lawrence, or Denis.

Lookups and photocopies of these deaths, if found:
Margaret COLLINS, 1906 (one mother, one infant)
Humphrey COLLINS, Jul-Sep 1910
Ellen COLLINS, Apr-Jun 1912

I am reiterating my uncertainty about Ellen Hurley. Margaret at Skibbereen Heritage Centre gave me information for "the only Ellen Hurley she could find baptized in Skibbereen whose father was John Hurley." According to family folklore, Grandmom had brothers Daniel, Denis ("Bob"), and Lawrence, her mother's maiden name was Hurley, and her father was "Danny Den Larr" (Daniel) and his father was "Denny Dan Larr" or something like that. I am reasonably certain that the 1904 marriage record is correct, plus the 1911 census record in Cullomane East is the correct one for Grandmom's household, as all the brothers match. In the census record, the father is Denis, but "Denny Larr" differs from "Danny Larr" by only one vowel. It then follows that Greatgrandmom's name is Ellen Hurley.

I should mention that there are OTHER records in the 1911 that are NEAR matches, and I rejected them for various reasons. I will list the near matches here and why I rejected them:

Coom

The father might be Daniel and there is a brother Daniel but Mary is too young and nothing else matches.

Derrynagree

Father is Denis, mother is Ellen, there are brothers Dan and Denis but no brother Lawrence, plus additional other brothers plus Grandmom did not have sisters. Note: the absence of one sibling is not always a reason to reject a record, as I discovered with Granddad's 1901 household census record. Granddad was nearly six years old and he was not even listed! Was he legitimately absent? Or was the census taker incompetent?

Gortshanecrone

There are brothers Daniel, Denis and Laurence, but Mary is too old and there is another brother Cornelius.

Ahgills

Father is Daniel, there are children Mary, Daniel, and Denis but no Lawrence, and two extra sisters.

So Cullomane East is our best match, and Ellen Hurley is Greatgrandmom. I have the following 1875 Ireland Birth films on order so I can take a closer look at eligible Ellens: #0255933, #0255938, and #0255043. Even if one of these is our Ellen, there is still no way of linking her with the marriage record, 1911 census record, or even the Ellen COLLINS death record that I ordered. So I have started researching Ellens in Bantry and Skull, though I haven't ordered any film yet.

According to the Irish Times, there was a heavy concentration of Hurleys in the Fanlobbus Civil Parish in 1851. This might be out towards Dunmanway, and that's an area I haven't started researching yet. There were some Hurleys in Drinagh and some in Dromdaleague, but there were no Hurleys in Skull, Kilmocomoge, or Killoe parishes (these are in the Bantry district, I think).

I may never be able to conclusively identify an Ellen Hurley from the birth records alone - hence a plan B is in the works to try and contact Hurleys currently in Coolnagarrane, Derrylugga, and Colomane and see if they are willing to tell me anything about their family histories.

TO-DO LIST FOR ELLEN (these aren't ordered yet except where noted):
1872, #255865, #255866, v20, p638, Skull
1872, #255855, v10, p28, Bantry
1873, #255887, v15, p32, Bantry
1875, #255933, v10, p39, Bantry **already on order**
Jan-Mar 1878, #256001, v5, p22, Bantry
Jul-Sep 1878, #256019, v5, p22, Bantry
Search 1870's births for Ellen Hurley in Dunmanway.

Okay, so much for Ellen. What else did I do today at the FHC? Besides start to copy down all the townlands in the District Electoral Divisions for the Bantry area, I again searched the marriage records on film for the early 1850's looking for a Denis or Daniel or Lawrence Collins. There are very few. I also looked for Great-great-granddad Michael Collins' marriage record, based on a snippet of court testimony, I believe from his widow, in 1909, saying that she was married "the year after the big snow." That was about 1853 or 1854. The film did not show anything, but the LDS PILOT database online had two Skibbereen records of interest, so I ordered them:

Michael COLLINS (Greatgranddad Humphrey Michael's dad) Marriage Records:
1865, #101474, v5, p848, Mick Collins
1866, #101478, v10, p363, Michael Collins

And what about Ellen's husband Denis, and his family? The LDS birth index starts in 1864, but fortunately a few siblings were born after that. Daniel Collins, his brother, was baptized in 1865. That was a RARE name for the time, so I ordered the one match I found in Skibbereen:

Daniel COLLINS (Grandmom's uncle) Birth Record:
1865, #101114, v15, p552

Over and out.

The mystery of Ceannceile

2009-08-23T20:37:00.000-07:00

One of the points in Grandmom's family story that has really been bothering me is the name of her parents' farm. According to the story, it is Ceannceile.

I have googled until the cows come home and there is no such place that I can find. I've searched for some kind of Ireland farm directory, to no avail. I searched the Irish news archives - nothing. I tried splitting it into two words. Cean or ceann can be a Gaelic word but ceile is not.

I thought this had to be a misspelling. So I asked some Irish language experts. One suggested it could be ceann choille "head of the wood" and that it could be the name of a townland. So that lead me to discover the townland of Ceancullig.

Another expert noted that Céile is the beginning of céileabhair "the warbling of birds."

Still another expert noted that ceann céille means "a head of sense."

Margaret at Skibbereen Heritage mentioned that Ceannceile "sounds very much like Kealkill, a little village/community on the eastern side of Bantry."

And apparently St. Brendan built a monastic cell at Seana Cill "old church" - anglicized to Shanakeel, out near Dingle.

So all I can do for now is keep this list of possible names for this farm - and consider the possibility that Ceannceile - or whatever it is - could have been its location.

Drimoleague and Dromdaleague

2009-08-23T20:25:00.001-07:00

This email that I sent to the website for the village of Drimoleague illustrates why doing genealogical research can be so incredibly difficult:


I am glad I came across your website.  As a novice 
to the area researching her family's history, I 
would love to see some additional information put
up on your web pages.  It might help others doing 
genealogical research.

This is what I think I know, and I'm sure some of 
it is wrong:

1) If Google Maps is to be trusted, Drimoleague, 
the modern day village, is at the intersection of 
R593 and R586.  This is not to be confused with
Dromdaleague, which is east of Drimoleague, near 
Baurnahulla, off of R586.
Google Map

2) The signs I saw during my recent visit to 
Skibbereen saying "Drom Dhá Liag" were 
referencing Drimoleague, not Dromdaleague.
Picture of a Sign

3) Dromdaleague North and Dromdaleague South 
were District Electoral Divisions in the 1901 
census of Skibbereen.  In that census, the 
townland of Dromdaleague was contained in the 
Dromdaleague South D.E.D.
Skibbereen Heritage Census Page

In the 1911 census, there is something called 
"Dromaleague Village" in the D.E.D. of Bredagh 
and the Civil Parish of Dromdaleague.
Skibbereen Heritage 1911 Bredagh D.E.D.

4) Drimoleague is also the name of a Roman 
Catholic Parish in the diocese of Cork & Ross 
that contains the Civil Parish of Dromdaleague.
Parish List

5) At one time Drimoleague was a Registrar's 
District, as referenced on this marriage 
certificate:
Drimoleague as a Registrar's District

6) The Registrar's District of Drimoleague was 
combined with that of Skibbereen by law in 2004.
Irish Statute

If you could enlighten some of us researching 
family history and include it on your website 
it would be incredibly helpful.  In what Civil 
Parish has Drimoleague, the village 
historically been situated in?  In which
registration districts has it been situated in?  
What is "Dromoleague Village" in Bredagh, etc, 
etc.  Simply straightening the geo-political
boundaries of these similarly-named entities 
would be of tremendous help!

Go raibh maith agat.

Research Update

2009-08-14T22:36:00.000-07:00

Where do I begin? Very shortly after the June 3 posting I immediately realized that I said Ireland finished putting its 1911 census records online, which isn't quite true. But County Cork records were completely put online, which is essential for my purposes.

Also, shortly after that post, cousin Jeanne contacted her sister Maura and obtained much more information on Granddad's and Grandmom's families. From this information, I learned:

-- Nora was not stillborn, but died probably under the age of a year
-- Granddad and Grandmom were both from the Skibbereen area, although that can be nebulous. For now, I am assuming that registration district is equivalent to Poor Law Union.

I had already found the 1911 census record for Granddad's household, but from additional information about Grandmom's parents and brothers I think I was able to find Grandmom's 1911 household census record - although I have some misgivings about it which I discuss below.

I learned that that "Bob" was indeed a weird nickname for Grandmom's brother Denis. So much for that elusive Robert Collins.

RESEARCH PRIOR TO IRELAND TRIP

It turns out that many of the LDS films I had ordered for viewing I ended up not needing, since 1911 Cork census records went online. The equivalent film to the online records is #1952210, items #3 - #5.

I checked #0257980 (births, Q4 1904, vol 5) and #0257990 (births, Q2 1905, vol 5) for Grandmom's birth record - no dice.

Film #1952210 contains the 1911 Cork records. Skibbereen is in item #5 - the very end of the film, of course!

On June 6 I ordered #0817270, item #2, to view the 1901 census. Once I got it I caught a glimpse of Granddad's household and copied the information down. Granddad himself is missing from the record. Why? Was the census taker incompetent? Where would a six year old be otherwise?!?

Stupidly, I didn't keep a long-term hold on this film, and will need to reorder it. I'm a little skeptical that the 1901 Cork census records are going to be online before the end of this year. We'll see. There are a lot of 1901 households I want to look at. Collinses, Hurleys, McCarthys. I want to make a copy of Granddad's household. Grandmom's household did not exist at the time, so I want to look for Collinses that might contain Grandmom's father Denis Collins or her mother Ellen Hurley. This won't be easy, and that's why I need the film around for a while.

HIRING A CERTIFICATE FINDER

I asked Genfindit to look for certain records, and although the researcher there sincerely apologized for some bungling, I cannot say I am entirely happy with their service and I will not be using them again.

I had asked them to search the 1896 birth records for Granddad, providing LDS film index volumes and page numbers, and although I told them WHERE he was born and WHO the parents were, I was sent all the non-matches initially without the corresponding LDS film index references (I had to ask for that info!) They did not find Granddad - it turns out I had the wrong year. But I found it rather annoying to be sent all these non-matching records without the BMD index references.

Genfindit also said at first they couldn't find the marriage record for Denis Collins and Ellen Hurley; I insisted they look for it again, and then they realized they had it.

IRELAND TRIP

During my Ireland visit, I got to talk to Uncle Denis and Aunt Theresa, plus meet Aunt Bernie (late Uncle Brendan's widow) and cousin Michael (Granddad's brother Humphrey's son) as well as Margaret, the genealogist at the Skibbereen Heritage Centre, and even my hosts at Bunalun Farm B&B - Seamus and Teresa Crowley. Between all those sources, I added over 30 names to my genealogy charts. Prior to my visit, I had asked Margaret at Skib Heritage to 1) look for a Roman Catholic church marriage record for Denis Collins and Ellen Hurley, and 2) look for a church marriage record for Humphrey Michael Collins and Margaret McCarthy. She was unable to come up with exactly what I was asking for, possibly because these ancestors got married in a Roman Catholic parish that Skib Heritage did not have records for.

I showed Margaret my copy of Denis and Ellen's GRO marriage record. It indicates that at the time of the marriage, Denis was living in Caheragh, and Ellen was living in Coolnagarrane. There is no question that Coolnagarrane is a townland, and Caheragh is too. But Caheragh is also a civil parish (not to mention a district electoral division), so this can quickly get horribly confusing.

The GRO marriage record shows that Ellen's father was John Hurley and Denis's father was Daniel Collins. Margaret found an Ellen Hurley, 23 years old, working as a cook in a Skibbereen town banker's house in the 1901 census. The only Ellen she could find baptized with a father named John Hurley was with a mother named Ellen Donovan; this family was in Derrylugga in the 1901 census.

I need to find more information on Ellen. There are many more Ellen Hurleys than I anticipated. Ellen is very important because she is in my direct matrilineal line, where the rare mitochondrial DNA comes from!

Aunt Theresa mentioned that right across the street from her in Cobh, the B&B is run by a Pat Hurley who is supposed to be a distant relative.

Margaret did give me the names of the siblings of Denis Collins along with their dates of baptism, along with the name of their mother. Skib Heritage has a baptismal index, and Margaret can quickly scan for *all* children baptized who were born to a parent with a name that you provide. So this is a great way to locate siblings of a person, as well as perhaps discover the name of that person's other parent.

By doing this, Margaret was able to tell me that Denis Collins' mother was Mary Mahoney.

In addition, Margaret discovered the name and birth year of the 10th child in Granddad's household who died either during or shortly after birth. Her name was Margaret, and she was born and died in 1906.

I also picked up from a few people that Grandmom had a cousin named Annie Sullivan, and I think I heard that Granddad had cousins with the surname Maher. Yet more places to go digging!

Uncle Denis was able to lay his hands on Granddad's birth certificate plus Granddad's and Grandmom's marriage record. Eureka!

AFTER THE TRIP

I came back from Ireland feeling much clearer about Granddad's family because I got to talk to cousin Michael.

But I still feel unsure about Grandmom's family. According to the original family folklore, Grandmom's father's name was Danny-Larr (Daniel Lawrence), but there was some confusion about that or Denny-Larr (Denis). I turned up the Cullomane East record from the 1911 census and it shows a Denis Collins as head of household but otherwise certainly seems to fit.

But the family folklore mentions that Denis and Ellen had a farm called Ceannciele. The farm is probably still in existence with descendants of one of Grandmom's brothers on it. I have googled; searched Ireland maps; looked for farm directories; searched for farmers markets; searched Ireland yellow pages; I cannot find anything about a farm with that name. I tried splitting the word in two - ceann and ciele. Ceann is definitely an Irish word; it occurred to me that ciele could be misspelled or missing a fada. Some Irish language experts suggested to me that the "proper" spelling might be closer to Cian na Coille, which means something like "head of the wood." More research turned up the placename Ciancullig in Dromdaleague civil parish in Skibbereen, and the original Gaelic comes very close!

Ciancullig is about 7 miles east of Cullomane as the crow flies. There seem to have been Daniel and Denis Collinses at least since the 1850's, when you look starting from Griffith's Valuation of Ireland. So right now I am just feeling unsure if I really did find Grandmom's family in the 1911 Cullomane East census record.

Cousin Michael carefully explained to me that among the Collins groups, there were "the Humphreys", which was Granddad's branch, and "the Larrys", which sounds like Grandmom's branch. But to add to the confusion, the Larrys seem to have come out of Adrigool, so if I continue this chase at some point I will want to link these family branches to the Collinses in Adrigool.

Family folklore also states that Grandmom was raised by paternal aunts (sisters of Denis Collins) after Ellen died, among them a Mrs. Michael McCarthy. She was known as "Sissy." The McCarthy home and Granddad's home were just "a field apart." Based on that information, I searched the 1911 census again for McCarthys in Skibbereen. This is not easy, as McCarthy can be recorded as: M'Carthy, MacCarthy, Mc Carthy, or McCarthy. Finding a Michael + Mary McCarthy household was very difficult, and I didn't really succeed in finding anything that fit the family folklore.

According to the list of siblings given to me by Skib Heritage, Greadgranddad Denis had an older sister Mary baptized around New Year's, 1852. For the 1911 census, that would have made her at least 59. There is a widow Mary McCarthy in Lissane, which is about "one field away" from Tooreen. She is 60. This fits the information I was given. I was assuming Michael McCarthy would still be alive in 1911, which made my search fruitless. If I can find more information about this Lissane household, i.e., a marriage record for Michael McCarthy and Mary Collins, this will bolster the case that Denis Collins and Ellen Hurley were indeed Grandmom's parents and give evidence to the family folklore.

For my next visit to the Family History Center, which will probably occur sometime on or after August 26 (the date of my next big software demo at work), I need to work through the following films:

TODO LIST

* not likely to find match
** somewhat likely to find a match
*** highly likely to find a match

== Grandmother's birth record ==
(I now think 1906)
***
0258013 - Q2 1906, vol 5, p 486
0258019 - Q3 1906, vol 5, p 427, 428, 429, 433
0258025 - Q4 1906, vol 5, p 440 (Mary Kate - not likely)
0258032 - Q1 1907, vol 5, p 442
0258038 - Q2 1907, vol 5, p 440 (Mary Ellen)

== Ellen Hurley's birth record ==
(Since I am an unsure which Ellen Hurley is the right one, I will take copies of all Ellen Hurleys with father=John in Cork)
*
0255950 - 1876, vol 5-1 to 5-2
0255956 - 1876, vol 10-1 to 10-2
***
101050 - 1873, vol 20, p 566
101051 - 1874, vol 12, p 664, vol 15, p 579
101052 - 1875, vol 10, p 717, vol 15, p 613, vol 20, p 550
101053 - 1876, vol 5, p 623, p 666

== Ellen Collins death record in 1912 ==
(Is this Ellen Hurley...?)
***
101605 Apr-Jun 1912 - vol 5, p 332

== Margaret McCarthy Collins death record ==
***
101603 - vol 5, p 351

== Margaret Collins (infant) death record ==
***
101603 - vol 5, p 330

== Humphrey Collins + Margaret McCarthy marriage record ==
101256 Apr-June 1890 - vol 5, p 282

== Humphrey Collins death record ==
101604 Jul-Sep 1910 - vol 5, p 317

== John Hurley + Ellen Donovan marriage record ==
**
101251 - 1871, vol 5, p 724

== Mary Mahoney marriage record - is the groom Daniel Collins ?!? ==
*
101244 1852 - vol 10, p 89

== 1901 census ==
NEED TO BORROW FOR ONE YEAR -
LOOK FOR ANY OR ALL OF THE FOLLOWING HOUSEHOLDS
0817270 to 0817273

McCarthy - Tooreen, Lissane - (Michael McCarthy + Mary Collins + 8 kids)
Collins - look at all households in Tooreen, Lissane, Cullomane East, Ceancullig, Adrigole
Hurley - Derrylugga, Coolnagarrane, Cullomane (John Hurley + Ellen Donovan + 9 kids)

== Michael McCarthy death records (Skibbereen) ==
*
b. 1861, d. Oct-Dec 1901 age 40, LDS# 101601, v5, p343
b. 1823, d. Apr-Jun 1903 age 80, LDS# 101602, v5, p369
b. 1841, d. Jul-Sep 1904 age 63, LDS# 101602, v5, p324
b. 1829, d. Apr-Jun 1906 age 75, LDS# 101603, v5, p382
b. 1834, d. Jul-Sep 1906 age 72, LDS# 101603, v5, p329

== Mary McCarthy death records (Skibbereen) ==
*
b. 1850 d. Jan-Mar 1921 age 71, LDS# 101608, v5, p343
b. 1851 d. Jan-Mar 1925 age 74, LDS# 101736, v5, p324
b. 1853 d. Apr-Jun 1923 age 70, LDS# 101736, v5, p318

The Family Research So Far...

2009-06-03T16:59:00.000-07:00

Last night I was informed that Ireland has completed putting its 1911 census records online. This is a major cause for celebration, and I'll talk about it later in this post. But I created this blog in order to document the progression of my family research, so let's begin at the beginning.

MITOCHONDRIAL DNA

This expedition began when I (perhaps foolishly!) had my mitochondrial DNA tested. To make a long story short, mitochondrial DNA is passed only from mothers to their children. So my mitochondrial DNA results would be the same as my mother's, and her mother's, and her mother's, and so forth. In addition, my sister and my cousins who are the children of my mother's sisters have the same DNA pattern.

In theory, a matrilineal line can be traced back over millennia. Scientists have worked out matrilineal classifications of European ancestry, of which there are roughly seven. These classifications are called haplogroups. I say "roughly" seven haplogroups because it turns out that some haplogroups have many subdivisions, called subclades. Scientists are still working to establish which are the older haplogroups and subclades and which are the newer ones. The older ones are maybe 40,000 - 50,000 years old; the newer ones might be 10,000 - 15,000 years old.

What I understand of mtDNA testing is as follows. There are three types of matrilineal DNA testing one can undergo, depending on how deeply one wants to test. The theory is that when somebody matches your DNA pattern, you share a recent common ancestor. "Recent" has a lot of wiggle room, but the more detail you have that matches another person's DNA pattern, the more recent the ancestor that you and the matching person share.

Assuming one has European ancestral origin, hypervariable region 1 (HVR1) testing will likely result in an assignment to one of the seven major European haplogroups. I am in Haplogroup H. Roughly 40% of native Europeans fall into Haplogroup H, so this is of little help.

Therefore, I went ahead and tested my hypervariable region 2 (HVR2). Now the number of matches I have in Family Tree DNA have plummeted because of the constraint of additional criteria. I am down to only about 27 other matches. So my DNA pattern is rather uncommon.

By the way, my Family Tree DNA kit number is N73108, and my DNA pattern is as follows:

HVR1: 16362C 16482G

HVR2: 239C 263G 315.C

The third type of test is the Coding Region test.

The full genomic sequence (FGS) is assessed when all three tests are completed.

My DNA pattern matches a number of others who have been assigned to subclade H6. So if I were to do the Coding Region test that is what I'd look to confirm (or refute). It turns out that H6 is a big mystery. It is thought to be a very old branch of H. It shows up a little bit in Ireland, is less common in the UK, pops up again in Scandinavia, and has a substantially heavier presence in the Balto-Slavic areas and the middle East. Go figure. Here is a great webpage on the subclades of Haplogroup H.

Seeing what a European misfit I was, it certainly started me thinking about Grandmom. Where did she come from? It was time to start digging into her's and Granddad's family histories.

GROUND ZERO

Here is the information I started with that I was 100% certain of:

Mom grew up in Bunalun (Bunalunn), Skibbereen, the third oldest child of John and Mary Collins.
The children were (not sure about the birth order): Margaret (Peg), Humphry, Mary (my mother), Eileen, Denis, Brendan, and Teresa.
Granddad had been in the IRA prior to the formation of the Irish Free State.

The rest of what I know is with varying degree of uncertainty:

There was either a stillborn or a child who died shortly after birth named Nora.
Grandmother was 16 and Granddad was 28 when they married.
Grandmother and Granddad were cousins. Grandmother's maiden name was also Collins.
I initially did not know with certainty if both Grandmom or Granddad were originally from Skibbereen.

I visited Ireland once with my parents, in July 1974. I vaguely recall visiting my Grandmother's brother "Bob." He lived around Bantry Bay. I remember the visit, because Mom started shrieking to him "You're left-handed!" Yes, I am ciotógach. Neither Dad nor my Mom could figure out where the left-handedness came from, until the day she witnessed her Uncle Bob slicing a loaf of bread.

I confirmed Grandmother's age at marriage in a rather amusing way. During that 1974 visit, I was not yet 16. Grandmother said something to me about 16 being too young to date. "But," I said, "You were 16 when you got married!" I don't remember how Grandmom responded but I do remember Mom smirking.

HOW I PROCEEDED FROM THERE

I started out by getting a copy of Mom's birth certificate. The first thing I learned was that she was born in Bauravilla, up the road from Bunalun. So the family lived in Bauravilla before Bunalun. This was completely new information to me.

The Southern Star is the Skibbereen newspaper. I spent two days querying the Southern Star news archives, searching for everything I could find about any Collins in Bauravilla or in Bunalun. I expanded my search to more Collinses in the Skibbereen area in general, and I extended my search backwards to about 1900. I have a stack of printouts from all these endeavors.

From these searches I was able to determine that the family "materialized" in Bauravilla prior to 1930 and moved to Bunalun roughly around 1940.

I was also able to find obituary notices for not only Mom, but also Grandmom and Granddad. I sent away for Grandmom's death certificate, but the certificate does not provide much background information. It did say she was a "Drinagh worker's wife." I had thought she was 69 when she died, but the death certificate said 71. (The death certificate does not provide a birth date, only the age at death. Aunt Peg was the informant.) Granddad's obituary notice provided details on his military service, but perhaps more importantly gave his middle initial "H." Right now I am assuming that stands for Humphry.

The news archives are a goldmine of information in a number of ways. When a funeral was written up, the newspaper often provided a list of mourners and their relationships to the deceased. This was particularly true 80 years ago, but unfortunately that quality of reporting has deteriorated over time. From funeral information I was able to work out some partial family trees of other Collinses in the Skibbereen area (which I hope to join one day to my own family tree).

Second, if a family relative was in the Roman Catholic clergy, that family got press.

Third, if somebody got ticketed by the police (garda), even for the trivial offense of driving a vehicle with expired tags, that often made it into the newspaper. In my case it was practically a Collins family tradition! I am pretty sure I have found instances of Granddad, Uncle Humphrey, and Uncle Denis all being cited.

Fourth, Granddad and Grandmom were farmers. They turned up in the papers in agriculturally related endeavors. Grandmom entered produce and agricultural products in local agricultural fairs. She and Granddad also posted advertisements for cows, straw, eggs, etc.

At this point I had found out all I could about John and Mary Collins from these information sources. I purchased a genealogy software package and started entering everything I could about my family, as well some of the other Collinses I encountered from the newspaper archives.

I started searching around on the web for further genealogy resources, and started looking at the resources provided by the Mormon church (LDS). The Mormons have incredible resources! But I knew I needed to seek out some blood relatives and get information from them before I started looking around for John and Mary.

RELATIVES PROVIDE MORE INFORMATION

Happily, I found cousins over the Internet! It was amazing to talk to them after not seeing them for 35 years.

Cousin Jeanne was able to provide me a crucial clue. Apparently, Granddad had two brothers named Michael and Humphry. This ended up being extremely valuable information.

MORMON RECORDS

One of my immediate goals was to search the 1911 census records (courtesy of LDS) in the hopes of finding either Granddad's or Grandmom's household. In order to search the census, one has to know the District Electoral Division (D.E.D.) a townland is in. (D.E.D.'s do not necessarily have the same boundaries as the local civil parishes. They are somewhat like U.S. Congressional districts, which can get shifted over time.) Skibbereen Heritage Center got me started with that information. With listings of townlands in each Skibbereen D.E.D., I was then able to search the LDS 1911 census index and obtain D.E.D. numbers. With the help of the folks at the Orange Family History Center (OFHC) here in Southern California I was able to figure out what other LDS films made sense to look at in order to find my grandparents.

Skibbereen is a big place, and I wanted to improve my odds of searching the right townlands for Collinses, so starting from the Woodfort D.E.D., which includes Bauravilla and Bunalun, I wanted to spread out from there. Another resource I thought would be helpful is the surname frequencies listed by civil parish in the 1851-1853 timeframe, provided by the Irish Times. Enter Bunalunn, and a record comes up for the civil parish Caheragh. Click on Caheragh, scroll to the bottom, and you'll see the most common surnames in that parish back in the 1850's. (I am assuming that the relative proportions of surnames stayed pretty much the same by the time 1911 rolled around.) The Collins surname is #3, so yes I want to spend lots of time poking around in the Caheragh civil parish. Scroll further down and you'll see the civil parishes adjacent to Caheragh. Click on Kilmocomoge, check the surnames, and you'll see that Kilmocomoge, has NO Collinses. I don't want to spend my time looking around in Kilmocomoge.

During my visit to the OHFC I went ahead and ordered census record film for some of the Skibbereen D.E.D.s. I also looked at Irish birth index records. This was quite tedious. Even with an approximate year of birth, there are just too many Johns and too many Marys. The index does not give middle names or initials; it does not say WHERE in Skibbereen somebody was born; it does not give the exact date of birth, only the quarter of the year of birth (three month period); it does not provide any parents' information. Even worse, it turns out that from this source of information, birth record details are just not available between 1881 and 1900. I don't yet know if this means that it is 100% impossible to ever get a birth record from the Ireland civil registration for somebody born in that time period. But this blackout period is a bummer.

IRELAND 1911 CENSUS NOW ONLINE

And then last night, I got a wonderful piece of news. At this point I have been waiting to get the LDS film of the 1911 census. I found out last night that Ireland has completed putting 1911 census information online, and that now includes County Cork.

I thought I'd give the search a try and entered: Collins, John, Cork, left Townland and D.E.D. blank, age=17, Male. Miraculously, I found a household in the Bredagh D.E.D. in Tooreen with not only a John but a Michael and a Humphry.

Eureka! Even though Granddad is a few years younger than I expected, I think this is him. Knowing the names of some of the brothers helped me identify the household. What really helped is that Humphry is a rare name.

The Bredagh D.E.D. was on some of the films I ordered from LDS, so if these records had not come online, I still would have found the correct census record by looking at the films.

Oddly, there are no parents listed in Granddad's household record. Brother Michael is listed as the head of the household. Were Granddad and his siblings orphans? The only other adult listed is a grandparent, Mary McCarthy. Is Mary McCarthy listed by her maiden name or her married name? If she is listed by her maiden name, she could either be Granddad's paternal or maternal grandmother. If she is listed by her married name (which I think is more likely for Ireland), then she must be his maternal grandmother. Argggh! More unanswered questions!

From the online census you get information not only about the family but even the neighbors. Leave all search fields blank except townland=Tooreen, D.E.D.=Bredagh, and you'll see that there were lots of McCarthys and Hourihanes (two major southern Ireland clans) as well as Kingstons, Lynches, and others. There was a Michael McCarthy next door to Great-great-grandmother, Granddad and his siblings. What was Michael McCarthy's relationship to Granddad's household?

Not having parental information in a household census record is abnormal. So where do I go from here? I want to recheck the birth indexes from the 1890's. While I was busily scanning for John Collins and Mary Collins in Skibbereen, I noticed that there were numerous Collinses named Denis, or Michael, or Jeremiah, or Cornelius, something else, but not Humphry (or Humphrey). So I want to go back and look for a Humphry Collins, born around 1900. He might have been born after that "blackout" period, so I might get lucky. The other avenue I want to pursue is the 1901 census. If I can turn up the 1901 household record surely it will list the parents. I'll start with LDS film #865092, index of townlands for the 1901 census. According the Ireland census office the National Archives are working on putting 1901 records online also. But I am too impatient to wait!

WHAT ABOUT GRANDMOM?

Grandmom was the whole reason I started this trip! The only piece of information I have about her, other than possible birth years, is that she had a brother she called Bob. If Bob was her brother and Bob was a nickname for Robert, this might be helpful. Robert is almost as rare as Humphry in the 1911 online census.

Searching for Robert Collins in Cork turns up five records, three which are of interest. Robert in Wolfe Square, Bantry Urban was apprenticed to a non-family household. Where did he come from? Robert in Canning Place, Monkstown (across from Cobh, I believe) had a younger sister named Mary (about the right age). Robert in Ballynidon (alt: Ballyidon), Kinsale Rural not only had an older sister named Mary Kate (also about the right age), but the father was Denis. If this is indeed Grandmom's family, I find it interesting that Uncle Denis could have been named after the father. The only thing that does not "fit" is that these matches are outside of Skibbereen.

There are plenty of other Marys about the right age in the online database, only there are no Roberts or Bobs in those households.

I hope when I visit in July either Denis or Teresa can provide a few details. In the meantime, what I have constructed so far for Granddad is available on my website.

Resources (home made)

2009-05-31T08:59:00.000-07:00

Check back periodically for updates to this resource page.

Maps

1911 District Electoral Divisions (D.E.D.) for Skibbereen.

Resources (external)

2009-05-31T08:47:00.000-07:00

ATTENTION: These resources have been moved to my Cork genealogy web pages, where there are many more links.

Births, Marriages, Deaths

Certificates - Buy online
LDS film numbers for births, marriages, and deaths. Click Info.
Registration districts and subdistricts as of 1871 (pdf file)

Church Records

Churches of the Skibbereen area (historical) - map
Introduction to Church Records (pdf file)
Roman Catholic Diocese of Cork and Ross
Roman Catholic Parish Maps - Irish Times
Roman Catholic Parish Register Catalog - NLI

Data, Research, Researchers

Family Search PILOT (courtesy of LDS)
Genealogists and Heritage Centres in Ireland
Information Wanted (Boston College) - missing people advertisements

Shared Tree (search Skibbereen, Co Cork, Ireland)

Directories

Francis Guy's county and city of Cork Directory (1875)

Internet Forums

Cork at Ancestry.com
Cork at British Isles Genweb
Cork at Ireland Roots
Cork at Roots Chat
Cork at IGP

Newspapers, Special Collections

Cork Archives
Cork County Library Newspaper Archives
Irish News Archives. The Southern Star is based in Skibbereen.

Places: Townlands, Civil Parishes, District Electoral Divisions, etc.

Civil Parishes, 1851-1853, with surname frequencies - Irish Times
District Electoral Divisions of Cork, with their corresponding LDS film numbers. Partial listing.
Irish Place Names Etymology
Placenames Database
Townlands Database. Search by Barony, Civil Parish, Poor Law Union.

Societies, Organizations, etc.

Cork Genealogical Society
Cork Past and Present
Society of Australian Genealogists (SAG) publishes "All Ireland Sources" newsletter